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By the way, David, I do not have an issue with
saying that these "ungodly men" were "once saved" -- although I probably
wouldn't say it like that -- but I do have a problem with using this term
as you do to refer to Christians who supposedly lose their salvation; in other
words, I would not refer to failing Christians as "once saved
believers" or "once saved Christians," as you and many others
may.
In this case of the men in Jude, there is no
evidence to suggest that they had ever believed or were once Christians at all; this even though they had been redeemed
by the Sovereign -- or Master or Lord (cf. despotan).
As for what happens to a "brother" who fails to
produce good works, Paul addresses this in 2 Corinthians
3.12-15:
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold,
silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become
clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and
the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work
which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If
anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved,
yet so as through fire.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 9:37
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Mary/Scripture/transubstantiation/interpretation
Lance wrote > I understood
Gary to be referring to believers. If that was incorrect then, I
apologize. If he was and you agreed with him then, you would've
been disagreeing with yourself. Which was it?
David responds > Jude 1:5 "I
will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that
the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
afterward destroyed them that believed not." Jude is talking about those who were once saved, but were
afterward destroyed when they believed not. This highlights exactly
what kind of Christians continue in sin. They are like those
Israelites who were delivered from slavery in Egypt, only to perish in
the desert because they believed not.
Hi David, Lance (and G by
extension:>),
I would like to take a different position than
you on this passage. I agree with you all that Jude is writing to believers --
but it is not about "once saved" believers that he
speaks. Rather he is speaking in reference to certain men
who have "crept in" and these are not believers at all, nor have they
ever been; in fact, he says of them that they deny Jesus Christ. And
so, Jude is cautioning the faithfuls to be on guard against these
"ungodly men," while reminding them (in verse 5) that they may
expect the Lord to deal harshly with them.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago
were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of
our God into lewdness and deny the only Sovereign (Gr. despotan)
and Lord of us, Jesus Christ. 5 But I want to remind you, though you
once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of
Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ... 8 Likewise also
these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of
dignitaries. (verse 4 is my own translation).
Here I understand Jude to be speaking about
"ungodly men" who with all humanity were redeemed by Jesus Christ
in the Christ event -- hence his use of the word despotan (see
below). Yet they are not former believers; rather these are men
who have perpetually refused to believe in him, which
is similar to what Peter says concerning certain false teachers in his
congregations: "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as
there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive
heresies, even denying the Lord (Gr. despotan) who redeemed them, and
bring on themselves swift destruction" (2 Pet 2:1). And so, in verse
5 we see that Jude is saying to these Christians that even though these
ungodly men were redeemed in the Christ event, their fate will be the same as
those whom God had "saved" out of Egypt who, even after having been delivered,
refused to believe.
Just another way of looking at it,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:41
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Mary/Scripture/transubstantiation/interpretation
> Lance wrote:
> > I understood Gary to be referring to
believers.
> > If that was incorrect then, I apologize. If he
was
> > and you agreed with him then, you would've been
> >
disagreeing with yourself. Which was it?
>
> Did you read the
passage that I quoted?
>
> Jude 1:5
> (5) I will therefore
put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how
> that the Lord,
having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward
> destroyed
them that believed not.
>
> Jude is talking about those who were
once saved, but were afterward
> destroyed when they believed
not. This highlights exactly what kind of
> Christians continue
in sin. They are like those Israelites who were
> delivered from
slavery in Egypt, only to perish in the desert because they
> believed
not.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned
with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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