Bill: There are numerous reasons why I reject
this doctrine, Izzy, the foremost of which is because I believe it is
impossible for Jesus to have been "spiritually dead" at any point in his
lifetime.
jt: I would agree with the above. I don't
believe it possible for the Lord of Life to have been in sin or spiritually
dead myself.
Bill: Paul tells us that Jesus came in
the "likeness of sinful flesh" and that it was in
his flesh that he destroyed sin.
jt: What scripture do you refer to
above? Rom 8:3 says he condemned sin in the flesh; also I would note
that he came in
the "likeness" of sinful
flesh and a likeness is not the real thing, it is always a
similitude.
Bill: I believe that it is absolutely essential
that Christ had to assume sinful flesh in order to save
us in our sinful flesh. If he did not have the same flesh as we, then
he did not defeat sin in our flesh -- it's as simple as that. Hence we are
still in our sin and he did nothing to restore or revive us in his
resurrection.
jt: If the above is your
condition for salvation Bill then you are still in your sin.
He had no sin in His flesh all of his sufferings were for us.
He condemned sin in the flesh and sent us
"dunamis" or power so that we can agree with Him and condemn sin in our own
flesh daily walking after the Spirit and free from it's power.
Stated another way, if he was born with flesh
other than our kind, which is "sinful," then he may have avoided sin in his
kind of flesh, but he left us in the sin of ours; hence he is not our
Savior.
jt: Then you deny the offense of the cross
and He is not your Savior Bill.
According to the classic doctrine of spiritual
death, "sinful flesh" is "spiritually dead" (read David's very helpful
posting of Augustine on this). The term "sinful flesh" is thus itself a
metaphor for the entire person living in a fallen state and a
sin nature.
jt: Nonsense, Augustine has nothing to do
with anything. Sin is a spiritual problem and it would be best to
leave Augustine out of this and stay with sola
scripture..
Bill: And since this nature is spiritually
dead, it has no ability or desire to seek God. It must be
"quickened" before it can be restored and become "spiritually alive."
jt: The above is Calvin not Bible.
Calvin is the one who says one has to be regenerated before they can be
saved; scripture says that "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall
be saved"
Bill: The common belief is that we are made
spiritually alive at the point that we are "born again." This is not a
problem for a strict "Calvinist" because he believes that God determines who
will be born again and, based upon that decree, reaches down, so to speak,
and quickens those whom he wills to save, thus restoring them to spiritual
life. But if one does not hold to this view, it presents a real problem: How
can one who is dead make a free-will determination to believe and hence be
born again so as to be made alive? Cadavers can
not make choices, let alone act upon them.
jt: How does a cadaver sin Bill? You
need to dispense with both Augustine and Calvin and their metaphors and let
the light of Christ shine where they have been.
Hence those who are not strict Calvinists must
equivocate at this point and treat the "spirit" aspect of personhood as if
it were not so dead as to not be able to respond to God's call -- which is
really to say that it is not dead at all, perhaps really
sick: but not "spiritually" dead. Here the desire is to hold
onto the classic language but not so tightly as to be true to or
consistent with its ramifications. I say just drop the language; it holds no
authority over us, since it is non-biblical terminology.
jt: Of course it is Biblical terminology -
mankind is "spirit, soul, and body" remember? It is terms like
"cadaver" that are not Biblical and hold no authority.
Now let's look again at
Jesus. If Jesus was born with our
sinful flesh, as the Scriptures attest, and if sinful flesh is spiritually
dead, then he too had to have been spiritually dead in his sinful flesh,
just as we are in our sinful flesh.
jt: Jesus was not born with OUR sinful flesh
Bill. His father was God - remember? So the sins of the fathers
did not apply to him. He came to be our substitue/sacrifice.
Bill: Why? because he came in the likeness of our flesh. And so the obvious question
is this: At what point did he become spiritually alive -- was it when
he was circumcised? or as a boy at his bar mitzvah? was it at his
baptism? his resurrection? when was it? Did he too have to be "born again"
in order to become spiritually alive? When was his "spirit" revived?
jt: Elementary Bill. He was not ever
dead in trespass and sin - that is US and when he took our
burden upon Himself at Calvary the light went out (because He is the light)
and that generation experienced 3hrs of darkness and it wasn't the
power company.
Bill: I believe that Jesus was always
spiritually alive and that from his earliest childhood, he was in
intimate communion with his Father. He was acutely attuned to his spiritual
dimension and allowed that aspect of his personhood to direct the other
aspects.
jt: Well then he wouldn't have been walking
in trespass and sin Bill while "finely attuned to his spiritual dimension"
would he?
Hence he walked in faithfulness to his Father
with every step, even "beating his way forward with blows," as Luke states
it. In other words, there was not a time when he was not alive and living
out his right relationship with his Father in absolute obedience.
jt: Where does Luke say he "beat his way
forward with blows?" Why would he have to do that since the Prince of
this world had nothing in Him? (John 14:30). If He had been born in
trespass & sin the Prince of this world would have had something in Him
and a claim on Him.
Yet if spiritual death is a requisite of
personhood in sinful flesh, then this cannot be true; for either Christ had
to have been "quickened" or born again in order to accomplish the
things he did in his flesh, or he did not come to us as we are -- in the
likeness of sinful flesh; hence he could not have saved us in our sinful
state. Bill
jt: Straw man argument Bill. Christ
was never spiritually dead. He is from above remember? We are
from the earth and earthly (John 3:31) - He that is from heaven is ABOVE
ALL, so I would think that this ends this false analogy.
