[TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

[Judy Taylor]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: It is scripture Bill. When I compare your words with what is written I encounter huge problems.   I would like to compare some of Bill's words with Scripture.  I think he is right concerning Christ's humanity.  If you think there is some problem with his words when compared to Scripture, please start by posting what Scripture creates the problem in your mind.   Bill had already mentioned one passage, and you had posted an objection. Romans 8:3 - (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:   jt: Bill was using the above to say that God destroyed sin because he believes everyone was assumed in the resurrection but this is not what Paul is saying here.  Paul writes that Christ condemned sin in the flesh and he then goes on to say it is  "so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).   You object to this passage based upon the word "likeness," saying that likeness does not mean the same.  However, the word "likeness" can mean more "like" than what you are perhaps giving credit.  Romans 6:5 speaks of us being planted together in the likeness of his death, therefore, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.  Are you going to argue that we will not be resurrected like Christ, but that his resurrection will be something different from ours?  I hope not.   jt: Romans 6 (the whole chapter) is teaching about Baptism and being buried with him in baptism into death then rising into newness of life (see 2 Cor 5:17) so Paul uses the analogy of the resurrection to describe the New Birth and it's aftermath. But in answer to your question.  No I don't believe our resurrection will be exactly like his.  His body saw no corruption whereas ours will and there is no way to get around that.   In like manner, Phil. 2:7 speaks of Jesus being made in the likeness of men. Does this mean that Jesus was not really a man, but that he only looked like a man?  I hope you would not argue that!   jt: I believe it means just what it says - He was made in the likeness of men; not that He was alien or extra terrestial. However, I do believe there are some important differences as follows:   We are conceived in sin and iniquity (Psalm 51:5) We are unclean (Job 14:4) We are estranged from God from the womb (Psalm 58:3) We are born of the flesh (John 3:6) We are earthly (John 3:31)   Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of his mother (Luke 1:35 Jesus was holy from the womb (Luke 1:41) Jesus was born of the Spirit (John 3:6) with a flesh physical body Jesus is from heaven (John 3:31) Now consider the very context of this passage.  It is speaking to the issue of how Christ condemned sin in the flesh.  We might ask, how?  Well, part of Paul's point here is that he came in the likeness of sinful flesh.  In other words, there is something about Christ becoming a man that enabled him to conquer sin in the flesh.    jt: It was not the fact that he took upon himself a flesh body that enabled him to conquer sin in the flesh; the battle was spiritual and it was won in the wilderness when he overcame in the same three areas that A&E were overome in which were:   The lust of the eyes The lust of the flesh The boastful pride of life The salient point here is that his flesh had to be like ours, warts and all, meaning, sin nature residing within it and all that.  This does not mean that Jesus was a sinner.  It means that his flesh tempted him in the same way that our flesh would tempt us.   jt: Tempted means that we have the thought and along with it the choice to aquiesce (as Eve did and then Adam) or resist in obedience to our heavenly Father.  Jesus did the latter using the sword of the Spirit against the enemy who tempted him.   To this agrees yet another passage of Scripture: Hebrews 4:15 (15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.   jt: Yes; He also became tired and weary, had no place to lay his head; He was sad and wept over Jerusalem; was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows and aquainted with grief.  The rest was layed upon Him at Calvary so He ran the gamut.   Compare this with the teaching of James that the source of all temptation is the flesh: James 1:13-15 (13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:  (14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.  (15) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.   jt: But He wasn't drawn away into lust was He?  He was tempted in areas of comfort, pride, the wrong kind of wisdom, idolatry, and human need in the wilderness and tempted at Gethsemane to avoid the cross but He trusted His soul to a faithful Creator and gave us an example that we should follow in His steps..  Something that would have been impossible before the New Birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit..   It seems rather clear that the flesh of Jesus was not sinless as the Roman Catholics and Augustine teach, but rather his flesh was just like the flesh of the rest of mankind.  His victory in the weakness of this flesh is very important for us, for our hope of salvation from sin, and for our hope of the resurrection.   jt: I'm still not seeing why this is so important to you; especially since God talks more about being pleased with the "suffering of His soul"  (Isaiah 53:10,11)    judyt