Judy wrote: > Bill was using the above to say that God destroyed > sin because he believes everyone was assumed in > the resurrection but this is not what Paul is saying here.
I agree that Paul was not saying this in this passage. However, Paul was saying that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, not in the likeness of pre-sin Adam, but in the likeness of post-sin Adam. Judy wrote: > Paul writes that Christ condemned sin in the flesh and > he then goes on to say it is "so that the righteousness > of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after > the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Amen. How do we receive the power to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh? Well, one way is in recognizing that big brother Jesus did it. We see his example. Such effects our conscience tremendously. No longer is it just a command from heaven, but a living, breathing person just like us showed us how it is done and how we can expect others to react to it and how we will have to deal with the frailty of our flesh as we too walk after the Spirit. Judy wrote: > Romans 6 (the whole chapter) is teaching about Baptism > and being buried with him in baptism into death then rising > into newness of life (see 2 Cor 5:17) so Paul uses the analogy > of the resurrection to describe the New Birth and it's aftermath. > But in answer to your question. No I don't believe our resurrection > will be exactly like his. His body saw no corruption whereas ours > will and there is no way to get around that. Those who are alive when he returns will not see corruption, so there is a way around it. Are you sure you are not dodging my point here? Do you not expect to be resurrected in the manner of Jesus? Is he not called the firstborn from the dead? Judy wrote: > I do believe there are some important differences as follows: > We are conceived in sin and iniquity (Psalm 51:5) Do you believe in the Catholic and Calvin doctrine of original sin, that we are born guilty of sin before God? I will wait to address this more thoroughly after I have learned if this is what you believe. This passage is a primary one used to teach this. Judy wrote: > We are unclean (Job 14:4) When we are born? Judy wrote: > We are estranged from God from the womb (Psalm 58:3) And Jesus was estranged from God on the cross, was he not? Did this defile him? Judy wrote: > We are born of the flesh (John 3:6) So was Jesus (John 1:14, 1 John 4:2). Judy wrote: > We are earthly (John 3:31) Yes, Jesus was unique in this sense, that he was from heaven. Judy wrote: > Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit > in the womb of his mother (Luke 1:35 Yes, another way in which he was unique. Judy wrote: > Jesus was holy from the womb (Luke 1:41) Yes, I agree. Judy wrote: > Jesus was born of the Spirit (John 3:6) > with a flesh physical body Jesus is from > heaven (John 3:31) Yes, yes. Why are these objections to the idea that his flesh was physically descended from Abraham? Why would these be objections that Jesus shared the same genetic material as Mary, and as such, had the same sinful tendencies of the flesh that we do? This does not mean that he sinned. It means that he battled the same temptations that we do. Judy wrote: > It was not the fact that he took upon himself a flesh > body that enabled him to conquer sin in the flesh; > the battle was spiritual and it was won in the wilderness > when he overcame in the same three areas that A&E > were overome in which were: > The lust of the eyes > The lust of the flesh > The boastful pride of life You are straying from the point of Romans 8:3. Paul explains how the law could not do it because of the weakness of the flesh, but what the law could not do, Jesus did. He did it by coming in the flesh of sinful man, conquering the temptations of it, now we receive his same spirit and can conquer it too. Where the law failed, Christ succeeded. Judy wrote: > Tempted means that we have the thought and along > with it the choice to aquiesce (as Eve did and then > Adam) or resist in obedience to our heavenly Father. > Jesus did the latter using the sword of the Spirit against > the enemy who tempted him. Temptation is more than this. James says that man is tempted when he is drawn away of his lust and enticed. This is exactly how Jesus was tempted. When he hungered (flesh), Satan tempted him to turn stones to bread. When he desire authority and power (flesh), Satan offered it to him. Judy wrote: > Yes; He also became tired and weary, had no place to lay > his head; He was sad and wept over Jerusalem; was despised > and rejected by men; a man of sorrows and aquainted with grief. > The rest was layed upon Him at Calvary so He ran the gamut. David Miller wrote: >> Compare this with the teaching of James that the source of all >> temptation is the flesh: James 1:13-15 >> (13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: >> for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: >> (14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his >> own lust, and enticed. (15) Then when lust hath conceived, it >> bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Judy wrote: > But He wasn't drawn away into lust was He? He was drawn away OF his own lust. He was enticed, but he never yielded to it. We see the picture of how he resisted such temptations in the wilderness. The flesh was the basis by which he was tempted. The flesh made the temptations attractive to him in the same way that our flesh makes such temptations attractive. Judy wrote: > He was tempted in areas of comfort, pride, the wrong > kind of wisdom, idolatry, and human need in the wilderness > and tempted at Gethsemane to avoid the cross but He > trusted His soul to a faithful Creator and gave us an example > that we should follow in His steps.. Something that would > have been impossible before the New Birth and indwelling > of the Holy Spirit.. Yes, he resisted these temptations, but not as a God in heaven who was looking down wondering why his fleshly creatures keep failing, but as one of us, as our brother, he was tempted and was victorious over these temptations. David Miller wrote: >> It seems rather clear that the flesh of Jesus was not sinless >> as the Roman Catholics and Augustine teach, but rather >> his flesh was just like the flesh of the rest of mankind. >> His victory in the weakness of this flesh is very important >> for us, for our hope of salvation from sin, and for our hope >> of the resurrection. Judy wrote: > I'm still not seeing why this is so important to you; especially > since God talks more about being pleased with the "suffering > of His soul" (Isaiah 53:10,11) His soul suffered because of his flesh. If his flesh had no selfish tendencies, he would not have sweat drops of blood in the garden. If Jesus was a man just like me in every way, it gives me great hope, great confidence, great assurance. I know that I can be like him because he has promised it to me, and more than that, he came into an existence just like me and showed me how it is done. Why is this important to me? I guess it is like the difference between reading an instruction manual for how to operate something I find complicated versus having the inventor himself come over and spend time with me showing me how it all works. It is like the difference between having a General command an army to go to battle from Washington D.C. versus having the General come eat with the soldiers and then lead the charge out on the front lines. Comprehending the fact that a holy and magnificent God became human flesh in order to express his love for me and conquer sin makes me well up with commitment and dedication and passion for him. I am a debtor to him and owe him all that I am. I'm not sure how else to express how my recognition of his humanity effects me so much. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
