RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14

[ShieldsFamily]

Bill, I think the error here is in thinking that being born again must include a powerful emotional experience.  If that is the criteria by which your pastor judges it is not a biblical model. I believe in simply having the person pray a prayer of repentance for sin, and invite Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, and asking the Holy Spirit to fill and guide them.  It is a simple, unemotional event.  It is based on faith, not on emotion.  If emotions follow, that is wonderful, but certainly not necessary.  I would have prayed such a prayer with your friend so that he would know for sure that he had done the right thing. His doubts would disappear, and God would honor his sweet heart’s intent.  izzy   -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:38 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14   I am glad, David, that you are not immediately jumping to conclusions, either about this man -- his faith, obedience, etc. -- or as to how we may have counseled him through this crisis of faith. Thank you. It demonstrates spiritual maturing on your part.   This was a man who had confessed many times that Jesus is Lord and had demonstrated as well as any of us are able to tell that he believed in his heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead. The problem was not his soul condition, it was with his theological conditioning. Our pastor had been drilling us for weeks with the same old "you must be born again" stuff, which was more of the same old thing which he had been hearing and teaching and living out his whole life. The problem was our pasture had grounded this teaching not in Jesus Christ but in our existential encounter. If we had not had a powerful conversion experience, then we had good reason to question our salvation. Well, here was a man who, because of his Christian "experience," having been raised by godly parents in the church and believed the truth of Jesus Christ his entire life, had never had one of those experiences where you're supposed to feel the ground shake. The truth was, he had never not believed. As a good friend of mine says, if he would have repented he would have had to stop believing. He had always believed from as far back as he could remember. He had just been deceived into thinking that his salvation was in jeopardy because he had not had a "powerful conversion experience." Of course, our pasture was convinced he was going to bring this poor old man to the Lord. And so he pounded him and drilled him and only made things worse -- but, thankfully, I was able to visit with him and ground his belief in Jesus Christ and bring him to a faithful assurance of his salvation in Jesus Christ, his Savior.   But what a travesty to have done this to that man. You surely do not have to agree with me concerning "born again" and when that takes place, to understand the dilemma that bad theology had placed us -- him especially -- in. To jump to conclusions and immediately start seeing red flags going up, is only to confirm your own lack of awareness and biblical sensitivity here. Thank you for not doing that.   Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14     > Judy wrote: > > How terribly sad  - did somebody counsel and pray > > with this man who was obviously under conviction > > of the Spirit? ... > > A born again person who is right with God knows > > they are born again and right with God.  If they don't > > know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying > > out for help..... >  > For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this.  I > hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never having > had experienced being born again.  I read a pastor's testimony once who had > pastored a very large traditional church.  He suddenly experienced the new > birth, and did not know what to do.  He told his congregation from the > pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a doctorate in > theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born again.  He > gave his testimony.  It completely split the church.  Many could not fathom > how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have been born > again.  Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone insane. > About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just could not > understand. >  > I don't know this man that Bill mentioned.  Bill did.  That means Bill has a > better foundation from which to speak on this issue, but it does seem to me > that the Lord was dealing with him. >  > Peace be with you. > David Miller. >  > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org >  > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. >  >      ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org   If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.