Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death

[Judy Taylor]

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:21:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body  -  the correct word would be "dead"  or "death.'   

 

jt: Why not allow scripture to interpret scripture JD? Death scripturally can be either the absence of spiritual

life or the end of days absence of breath because of sickness and disease or old age. Both are valid.

 

Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts,

the reality is this:  there is not a dual reality when it comes to man.  He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what

he is.  The three cannot be separated and survive.  

 

jt: Why not see what the scriptures say about this and if they don't agree with Bill then you can decide whose

report you will believe.  1 Thess 5:23,24 speaks of the God of Peace sanctifying us completely and identifies the

complete man as spirit, soul, and body.  All three are to be preserved blameless.  Now if they are not to be

thought of separately then why are these verses in the Bible and why does Heb 4:12 speak of the separation

of spirit and soul.  I would think these issues are important since the Word of God addresses them.

 

THAT is why the physical body will be raised  -  because there is no life for man apart from the three and no

eternal life apart from God.   "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit"  IS A STATE OF MIND   (Rom 8:5), 

 

jt: I believe you are wrong about this JD.  The rich man in Hades who wanted Lazarus to come and help him -

did he have his body down there with him?  When Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison - where are

their bodies?  This is important - If you can't identify flesh then how are you going to keep from walking in it?

You will never get out of captivity that way and the body you are in right now is not going to heaven the way

it is.

 

You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in

scripture at all, which is not fine. 

 

jt: And you and your friend use a non-biblical word to express a tritheism that is not taught in scripture. Godhead

is the scriptural term and mankind is also a triune being.  How is it that you can accept all of these non-biblical

concepts concerning the Godhead (where does anyone get the idea that there is dancing going on?) and yet

refuse to accept the concept that our bodies contain a soul and spirit which harmonize and work together the

same way the Godhead does ie none is complete without the others and they submit one to the other.

 

Many argue that man is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual."  ALL  choices are "spiritual" 

because man cannot be separated from such.  

 

jt: I wouldn't argue with your point above, but I would add that there are two spiritual kingdoms vying for the

allegiance of manking and we need to know which one we are communing with and walking in lock-step with.

 

As far as I am concerned  (and Bill might not agree with this -  input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long

as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body

and soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other wise.  

 

jt: Now you are verging off into philosophy JD.  How are we ever going to try the spirits and prove what is of God

if you are constantly going off into mixture?  Ontology is a metaphysical term.  Can we use the same plainness of

speech Paul spoke of in 1 Cor to discuss spiritual realities - Please JD?

 

Since man is a spirit filled being  (John 3:21;  Phil 2:12-13) he destroys himself when he tries to live his life apart

from God - such is impossible and death is its only result. 

 

jt: Ppl can be demonized for a long time before God's mercy runs it's course and physical death ensues. Look at

how long he gave the Amorite nations - 400 years wasn't it?  Before He said - That's it.  Today we have all kinds

of weird spiritualities calling themself godly who will also inherit the wind unless they repent and turn.

 

This is not some liberal teaching that takes us away from God  !!!   Such a conclusion is thoughtless bordering. 

 

jt: Any teaching that ignores or negates God's holiness and his justice and focuses upon his love to the exclusion

of all else is a liberal teaching and will take people away from God.

 

Rather, it puts God in man and offers man a choice  -  to accept this gifted presence and live,   or reject what cannot be rejected and die. 

 

jt: Only one problem JD. God does not go where He is not invited - just because the worlds (and we) are held together

by the Word of His Power does not mean that He is inside every person.  Repentance must precede baptism.

 

This teaching insists upon repentance  (a change of mind), preaching to the lost that they must stop thinking they are autonomous AND ACTING OUT THAT THOUGHTLESSNESS, and accept what is given to them and live as if LIFE were an integral part of who they are because tht is the way it is.     JD

 

jt: Not necessarily; calling the unrighteous righteous is not something I would want to be part of. It is as bad as

partaking of another man's sin.  Ppl who are right with God know it - they don't have to be told. If they don't know

it and are interested then they need ministry.  This all encompassing "positional truth" theory is error en masse.  Someone has taken a sliver of truth and run with it rather than waiting on the Lord.   jt

 

From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>

And since it is the spiritual condition under discussion, this would be "spiritually dead" right JD?

 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:27:09 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already"  -- 

kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point. Jd 

 

From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Izzy asks  >  Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? 

 

Okay, I will address your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others. I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured.  In other words, I stumped you, huh? J

 

When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existence in th e depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state.  Agreed, of course. 

 

I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion.  No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill.  I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while.  J

 

Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you,  Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable.  izzy

 

Bill

 

 

                                              judyt
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
               are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
               even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

 

                                              judyt
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
               are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
               even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)