[TruthTalk] The Humanity of Jesus

[Judy Taylor]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think you meant Heb. 7:26.  Yes, he is undefiled and separated from sinners, having now been exalted higher than the heavens.  Yes, he was like us in every way except sin, meaning, he never sinned.  This does not mean that he did not partake of the nature of fallen humanity.    jt: He was made in our "likeness" without the sin.  I do stand corrected in that Romans 8:3 does use the term "sinful flesh" to describe us - not Him.   Scripture testifies otherwise, and you cannot pick and choose to accept certain passages without accepting others.  Romans 8:3 says that he was made in the likeness of sinful flesh.  You want to omit the adjective sinful, but the Holy Ghost inspired Paul to write sinful.   jt: Yes He did but to describe us - not Him. I don't know where you got this idea and you don't have a whole lot of company in it. I can't find one study Bible with notes that say what you are saying - the Living Bible says "We aren't saved from sin's grasp by knowing the commandments of God, because we can't and don't keep them, but God put into effect a different plan to save us. He sent his own son in a human body like ours - except that ours are sinful - and destroyed sin's control over us by giving himself as a sacrifice for our sins...." Rom 8:3 LB They all say much the same.  So where do you get this extreme teaching??   David Miller wrote: >> So, then, you hold your own theology above the teaching >> of Scripture in Romans 8:3.  Paul says Jesus came in the >> likeness of sinful flesh, but you say that his flesh was unlike >> sinful flesh.   jt: That's right, it is our flesh that is sinful - not His.   Romans 8:3 (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:   jt: You just can't get by that "qualifier" David; if his flesh was the same as ours it just didn't have to be there and yet it is even part of the NIV who dropped more than 60,000 words - wouldn't you think those three would have been some of them if they really were not needed? ie: "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature; God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering and so he condemned sin in sinful man. (Rom 8:3 NIV)   The adjective "sinful" is right there, Judy.  Read it.  Believe it.  Jesus Christ the Son came in the likeness of SINFUL flesh, and FOR SIN.   jt: Again - it's always "the likeness" rather than the actual thing David, we just can't get away from that qualifier can we?   In 2 Cor. 5:21, it goes further and says that Jesus was MADE SIN for us.   jt: Yes He was, and this is where He took our sin upon Himself, at Calvary.   We are not demeaning Jesus Christ by speaking of the extent to which he tasted humanity for us.  He tasted sickness and death.  He tasted human nature and the desires of the flesh, but he never sinned.    jt: He tasted all of this during that three hours of darkness on the cross. David.  He was not walking around constantly pushing and straining against a rebellious and deceitful heart along with the iniquity of his fathers.   This was his victory.  What kind of victory over the flesh would it be if he never had a flesh with the weaknesses that torment the rest of humanity?  You cheapen Jesus Christ when you claim that he was created with an alien flesh, not of the seed of Adam, not of the seed of Abraham, not of the seed of David.    The seed of Abraham and David is their spiritual seed David; it does not have to do with the old Adamic flesh nature at all - you won't find his seed named except in certain doctrines having to do with the incarnation but we won't go there.   Let none of us contradict the Scriptures in our understanding of who Jesus was and is.  He was made like us in every way except that he did not sin. Although he did not sin, he came in the likeness of sinful flesh, and he was made sin for us, that we might be delivered from the power of sin ourselves.   jt: He was made a sacrifice for sin on the cross David - his flesh was holy and "the likeness of sinful flesh" was as good as it got until He chose to lay His life down - willingly.   <snipped irrelevant stuff for brevity>   I have not added anything to Scripture.  You are trying to subtract the word "sinful" from what Paul wrote in Romans 8:3.  I only affirm what Scriptures teach, that Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, to condemn sin in the flesh.   jt: If you quote Romans 8:3 verbatim David you will say as you do above that Christ came in the likeness - not in sinful flesh itself... and yes he did condemn sin by taking it to the cross.  Anything else is adding a new theory to what is written.   Judy wrote: > We need to read Romans 8:3 in light of Hebrews 7:26.  Undefiled means undefiled. "For such a High Priest WAS fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and has (now) become higher than the heavens"   Sinful flesh does not defile a person.  That is the point.  The word "undefiled" in Hebrews 7:26 is used elsewhere in reference to people like you and me.  When God sanctifies us, he makes us righteous despite the sinful nature of our flesh.  He gives us power to live above it, in authority over it, because he too experienced it and knows how to conquer the flesh.   jt: He didn't have to walk in it daily to experience it David, and what's more He didn't.  He knows because if Isaiah 53:5-9   David Miller wrote: >> His flesh was holy and set apart, in the same way that ours is when >> we come to saving faith in Jesus Christ.  We are set apart, body, soul >> and spirit, to serve the Lord.  However, this does not mean that the >> sinful nature of our flesh, its passion and desires to be selfish and bring us >> into disharmony with the spirit, has been eradicated.  We must continually >> believe upon the Lord and die daily to the desires of the flesh. Jesus >> walked this same way, keeping his body under subjection.   jt: Sanctification for us is a lifetime affair; it was not so for Him. If it were He would not have been accepted as a sacrifice and who would have been a sacrifice before God for Him?   Judy wrote: I don't think so David.  His flesh was holy and set apart from Mary's womb He was born with the fullness of the indwelling Spirit and then anointed for ministry at His baptism.   I think you are confusing John the Baptist with Jesus now.  John the Baptist is the one who is said to have been filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb (Luke 1:15).    jt: Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit or don't you believe in the virgin birth either David?   Are you going to argue based upon this that John the Baptist also was born with a flesh that lacked the sinful nature?    jt: No, John was just like us and he said he was not worthy to tie the latchet of Jesus' shoe. I don't believe this was a false humility.    Your argument that he was holy, set apart, filled with the Spirit, anointed at baptism, etc., is irrelevant because it does not sufficiently distinguish Jesus from other men who have a sinful nature and yet also have all these other attributes that you are referencing.   jt: John thought he should be set apart David and so did all of the men and Mary who fell at his feet and worshipped Him.  I've not met anyone in sinful flesh so far who inspires God's ppl to want to do that.   Judy wrote: When I see you or some other Christian walking on water, walking through hostile crowds wanting to throw you off a cliff. Setting everyone free who comes to you - no misses at all.  No false prophecy ....Everyone healed, delivered, and some raised from the dead. You will then have my attention.   Oh, so now you are ready to deny what Jesus taught in John 14:12 in order to keep your theology of Jesus not being sent in the likeness of sinful flesh? My ability or lack thereof has nothing to do with Jesus being manifested in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, who became sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God.  Don't rob Jesus of his testimony of victory over sin just because you think I am weak and contemptible.   jt: No I am not denying John 14:12; I believe it is possible for born again spirit filled men, who have reckoned the old man dead and who walk in newness of life to do the works of Jesus.  But I don't believe any one man will do everything Jesus did for the simple reason that we each have a measure and He walked in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. No matter which way it is spun. He is not exactly like us.  He is God.  We are flesh.   Judy wrote: Sin and our flesh is what hangs us up every time. We don't understand God as we should, nor do we consistently walk in His ways.   I agree that this is a problem for all of humanity, but Jesus was manifested to resolve this problem.  Now you sound like JD, Gary, and all the other Christians who glory in the fact that they are sinners.  What happened to 1 John 3:5?   jt: I don't glory in any such thing, nor do I entertain sin consciousness all the time.  But I don't think we should be carried away with strange doctrines either.      judyt