David, what I wrote below was more a reaction (to what I took to be a
categorical all-or-nothing pronouncement) than a proper answer. As you can
see from my previous post (in response to Izzy's), I can go with your (5) at
least! I also consider disease and death to be part of the fall, although I
am not certain whether this death includes mere mortality as well as
something metaphorical. If it doesn't--that is, if we were already mortal
before the fall, which I believe is possible (and I recall a post by you
suggesting you also thought so)--then the fall added suffering and terror to
death.
I think I also overlap with you and others on the question of
accountability. I believe we can suppress or turn from light we are given. I
believe we willingly sin, but I do not think this implies freedom, at least
not as freedom is usually understood. Also, for me "accountability" carries
with it an implication that we may be called upon either to fix the
situation or to make full amends for it. But we cannot and are not--God has
taken it upon himself to do both.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
I see; thanks for spelling that out. I have some uncertainty, especially
given our different understandings of "flesh", and the fact that I've never
encountered (3) before in an articulation of the fall. I think our views
would overlap. I'll continue thinking about this. Meanwhile you can put me
in whatever category you like.
Debbie
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us
Debbie wrote:
I'm not sure where the problem lies.
Yes, what Christ accomplished deals with all
the negatives, but goes beyond that ...
I agree that what Christ has accomplished goes beyond that. I agree that
we
will be something greater than Adam was before the fall, after we are
glorified. Where the problem lies is in denying the fall, denying the
idea
of restoration and redemption.
I outlined conditions that existed before the fall: 1) no death, 2) no
sickness or disease, 3) no influence of evil spirits of the air, 4) no
sinful nature of the flesh, 5) no sin. After the fall, there was 1)
death,
2) sickness and disease, 3) influence of
evil spirits in the air to lead others into sin, 4) a sinful nature
inherited in the flesh, and 5) sin.
Do you agree or disagree with these conditions? If you agree, then you
believe in the fall. If you do not agree, then you do not believe in the
fall. John has expressed that he does not agree with these conditions.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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