Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:51:54 -0700

Precisely, my dear.   In fact, it bears repeating:    
 
Perhaps you misunderstood part of my recent little dialogue with JD. I think it's true that we receive much from God before we are even really aware of it, and only later it dawns on us that he was at work in us. But that doesn't mean it was me all along, or that everything I did all my life was right. It means that if I did any living of the truth before I knew it, that too is because of him.
 
It seems to be that John 3:21 and Phil 2:12-13 work very well together.   
 
I believe that to deny this measure of grace,  God's working in us, is to the add to the destructive nature of the lie that is known as "roughed individualism"  (read:autonomy).  
 
Jd
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:11:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

John, I think I am understanding you. I think the different ways of speaking of this may be quite literally a matter of perspective, timewise. I may be confusing timing with source. Check what I said in the second paragraph of my reply to Judy. Am I close?
 
Debbie 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

 
Debbie, you wrote these words in a post ot David:  I was very conscious, when real faith and recognition came, of being given it (as passage into Narnia is given). Yes, it really was like being approached by an invisible someone who knocked me over with a wave of love
 
In John 3:21, "the light" is that which manifests the fact that our workings HAVE BEEN in God (all along.)   The word "manifest"  or "revealed"  is an aorist subj PASSIVE  verb   ----   the action is done to us by another.  The syntactical construct of this verse not only ties in with your statement above but (IMO) serves or can serve as a summary statement of the fact of reconciliation.  Because of the Incarnate functioning,  the barriers having been torn down by that which is the Light o f this world, we are made aware (by another) that our sense of aloneness, of desertion if you will, is and has been untrue all along. 
 
I will never forget how defeated I felt, years ago, lying fully outstretched on my office floor, begging God to indwell me with His spirit   (I am praying this prayer as a convert and faithful child of God, mind you).  That was in the 1970's.  Sometime in late 1997, it came to me that I God had been at work in me from the beginning.   That realization was given to me.   I (me, myself and I) did not "figure" it out.   A subjective claim, to be sure, but one that Torrance would agree with,  I think.  
 
So, if the discussion of new birth in John chapter 3 extends to verse 21,  new  birth is not am event but a process that culminates in that moment I come to the revelatory light that is Jesus Christ.  John 1:18 makes it clear that Christ is the explanation of God the Father. 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 01:01:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

This way of looking at it doesn't seem impossible to me. The operative point for me in your exposition is "all that I have done has been accomplished in God"--i.e., not in and of myself, as a result of my spiritual perspicuity.
 
This reminds me of a verse I have on my fridge: All that we have accomplished, you have done for us. (Isaiah 26:12)
 
Debbie
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

I did not make myself clear  -   I think I agree with what you saying in the asking .   the version I used is the NKJV, for what it is worth.   When I look at the passage,  I see it saying that  I "do" the truth before I get to the light -- whatever that is.   Now,  at this point "light"  is introduced into the equation.   That term "light" can mean Jesus or simply "exposure."  I get to make a choice  -  knowing that both decisions will have their merits.   I go to verses 18 and 19.   Verse 18 speaks of judgment and Christ.   Verse 19 speaks of judgment and light  (that light HAS COME into the world).  I decided in favor of "the  Light" because verse 19 suggests that this light was not always in the world while I know that "exposure" was and is.   With that choice in mind,  I now have a readin g that presents this:   I do the truth and in this doing  (and I believe as a result of doing the truth, although this passage does not address this per se) I come to the Light AND IN THIS LIGHT, it is rev ealed that ALL THAT I HAVE  DONE has been accomplished in God.    I see John 3:1-21 as a part of the same context.   When I read this passage,  I see no break in Christ's explaining.   I conclude, then,  that this "new birth" accrues when I come to realize, in the Light, that God has been and is the motivating force in my life for the good will of God.   Before the cross or Christ,  I am autonomous  (a lie).   After I come to Christ  (He does give purpose to all that I do, after all),  I see ALL THAT I HAVE DONE as being in God. I suddenly (if you will) realize that I have never been alone.  He has always been there.     The "new birth," then, for me, is not an experience but a realization.    I lived as a disciple for 40 plus years before "the lights" went on.   And this light grows brighter by the day, it seems,  as I associate with those who may be further down that road than I at some point  (in this forum  -  at times each member of the forum [yes, I have even been touched by deegan].  
 
I think it important that verse 21 is specifically a part of the context beginning in verse one. 
 
I am reading (slowly and deliberately) the MOC this weekend.  I passionately agree with Torrance when he speaks of a knowing that goes beyond or outside the pale of logic.   With that in mind,  I acknowledge that the above may be only an illustration of a little too much analyticalism  (my apologies to the linguist).  But such is how I think when it comes to exegetical surmising s !!!
 
I am open to a differing opinion and do not offer the above as an argument for why I am right.  Rather, I am merely presenting how it is that I came to my conclusion   ------------    thus far.  
 
JD
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:01:48 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

My initial thoughts: I think it may be talking more about integrity than awareness, and that the light here has to do with exposure--to view (and judgment, in the sense of recognition or evaluation) by someone outside oneself. Could it be that both parties referred to in 20 and 21 already know what the truth is, but they either respond negatively and try to hide this (including perhaps from themselves)--much as A&E tried to hide from God--or they respond positively and actively and openly? In some translations I read, "come out into the light", suggesting a light that is shone on them rather than the light by which they knew the truth.
 
Debbie 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

 
 
John 3:21 seems to say that we do the truth before we come to the light.   After coming to the light, it is revealed that all that we did (having been wrought   NASV  -  the Greek is past tense) was IN God.   Does this not apply to this discussion.  
 
JD
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Sawczak <debbie@kest.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:28:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us

Note to Terry (whose response to the below I accidentally deleted): I agree that A & E 
perceived good and evil, as moral categories, after the fall, as do their 
descendants (although we vary widely on what we put into those categories). 
They also obviously perceived ugliness in the world which was not there 
before. Their descendants also perceive this (and philosophize and po eticize 
eloquently about it). But I don't think this is the same thing as 
recognizing our condition as sinful/fundamentally corrupt, and apprehending 
the ramifications of that. It is the latter whi ch requires revelation by the 
HS. 
 
As for "having" the HS: He has always existed and interacted with human 
beings. He can act on the understanding without indwelling the person as&nb sp;
those in Christ are indwelt. 
 
Debbie 
 
----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Sawczak" <debbie@kest.com> 
To: <[email protected]> 
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:41 PM 
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Adam - sin - and the rest of us 
 
>I do not want to confuse the conscience with the Holy Spirit at any stage. 
> 
> It is the Holy Spirit who reveals our condition to us , who convicts of 
> sin. I do not mean pointing out individual transgressions to us (which 
> acts are right and which are wrong). I mean giving our darkened minds an 
> understanding that our humanity as it is is pervasively bent--that we are 
> not in the proper relation to God and are in need of redemption. We can't 
> kn ow that without knowing who God is and who we are meant to be in 
> relation to him. This is by the Holy Spirit. 
> 
> Debbie 
 
---------- 
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org 
 
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