Re: [TruthTalk] Perry & Dave: inquiring minds want to know

[Dave Hansen]

David Miller wrote: DAVEH: Did not the early apostles (mentioned in the Bible) possess the authority of God?  Do you know of any who you are certain had the authority as was given by the Lord who lived after they (the Biblical apostles) died? I think St. Martin might be a proper example, but rather than get bogged down in names and history, how about we simply examine the Biblical basis for authority. We find Jesus conferring authority in the following passage: Matthew 16:15-19 (15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? (16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Now Peter had already been given authority prior to this event (see Matthew 10:1). DAVEH:   As I see it, Jesus gave them that authority through the ordination process as mentioned in Mk 3....... [13] And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. [14] And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, [15] And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: .....or Jn 15....... [15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. [16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. ........Acts 13 suggests that laying on of hands is the method of setting them apart for the work they are prescribed to do........ [1] Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. [2] As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. [3] And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. ......When the Lord gave Peter the keys of the kingdom to seal, Peter already had the authority to act in behalf of God, and was commissioned in Mt 10:1-8 to preach, heal and cast out devils, etc.......but he had not previously been given the commission to do the specific action of sealing.       So DavidM.....no, I do not see that Jesus was giving Peter power in Mt 16.  Peter already had the power to act in behalf of God, but the keys were a special commission to do a specific act that had not previously been requested.  As I see it, the power to act in behalf of God was given upon their (Peter and the other apostles) ordination.   Therefore, what we are seeing here is insight from Jesus into how authority is conferred upon a person.  It comes from the faith of the believer. DAVEH:  That seem illogical.  If the faith of a believer is all that is needed to gain the authority to act in God's behalf, then do you recognize the faith of the believers of the RCC?   Or....how about the faith of the believers in Mormonism?   The confession of faith is what brought Simon authority, causing his name to be changed to Peter (meaning rock), and giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven.  Every believer receives the keys of the kingdom of heaven when he steps into this realm of faith.  After all, the promise of the kingdom was not made to one person, but to many. DAVEH:   Ohhhhhh......that's an interesting insight, DavidM.  Now I'm beginning to see why you believe as you do.  However, it seems illogical to me for you to draw that conclusion due to the apostles previous receipt of the power of God as described at the time Jesus ordained them.  Don't you believe that the apostles already had the power of God prior to Jesus giving Peter the keys in Mt 16?     IF your scenario is correct, Jesus would not have had to give Peter the authority in the first place....it would have been automatic due to Peter's belief.  Yet Jesus obviously gave something to Peter at that time due to his belief.  Logically, my assertion that it was a special commission (keys) makes more sense.  But....I do have my LDS bias that reinforces that notion.  I just fail to see how you would build your case on such a passage.  Are there other passages that support your perspective? The entire church is to inherit the keys to the kingdom of heaven. DAVEH:  As you know, that seems to be an illogical conclusion from my perspective.  Those keys were only given to Peter at that time, and to conclude that it applies to anybody with faith would bring a lot of confusion due to many believers of faith of different religious persuasions may be at odds with how they handle those keys.  Does that make any sense, DavidM?  Perhaps I should ask you how you define keys? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.