Dave wrote:
After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts the Bible?
I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see. Was it a
burning bush? A glowing mass? A pillar of fire? A column of Smoke? You see,
God appeared however he wished to appear to Moses. It appears to have been
different each time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was that god wanted
him to see...and in the appearance on Sinai, God certainly took a form that
moses could "see". However, on Sinai there was an aspect of this appearance
upon which no man could look and live. God called this his "face". He
protected moses from gazing upon this aspect of his appearance, so it
reasonable to believe that in future meetings Moses did not see god's "face"
or he would have died as the boble states.
The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and survived
(endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible. And, none of the verses
you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect of God's appearance anyway.
Maybe the mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and, since you
think the mormon god is a man, he must have a literal "face") and survive,
but , according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY man,
could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof that the
mormon god is not the biblical God.
Thanks for the effort you put into this, Dave, but I don't "still think" it
contradicts the bible...I "still know" it does. I am sorry that your mormon
faith causes you not to be able to see this.
------------------------
How about my second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not have
to look it up:
It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was once a man (from Kolob) who
was a created being (if not as a man, at least created as a spirit). Yet, in
the PoGP (one of your standard works consisting of revelation to JS, right?)
I find the following, which appears to say that the mormon god had no
beginning ("without beginning of days"):
MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God
Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end
of years; and is not this endless?
Now, how is it that the mormon god had a beginning, yet is "without
beginning of days"?
Thank you in advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain this to me.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800
DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's look what happened to him
in Ex 33...
*[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto
his friend. *
...............At the end of the same chapter, the Lord tells Moses........
*[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see
me, and live.
[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt
stand upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put
thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass
by:
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_:
but my face shall not be seen.*
...........*_thou shalt see my back parts_*, and as evidence that actually
happened, ch 34 explains........
*[34] But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the
vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children
of Israel that which he was commanded.
[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of
_Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he
went in to speak with him.
*...............That something miraculous had happened that caused *_Moses'
face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies what Moses saw........
*[5] And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the
door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came
forth.
[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the
LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him
in a dream.
_[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark
speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:_ wherefore then
were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?*
.........Notice that he distinguishes between Moses and those of lesser
faith. And he clearly points out that Moses beheld the *_similitude of the
LORD_*.
So Perry, would you not admit that this clearly shows that Moses saw
God? That Moses did not see God's face is of little consequence. Moses
probably never saw the bottom of God's feet either. But....according to
the Bible he certainly saw God.
After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2.........
/_*And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of
God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*_/
..........contradicts the Bible? I certainly don't see any contradiction,
especially since the Bible quotes the Lord as speaking *face to face* to
Moses. Are you clear on that, Perry........or do you continue to believe
it is impossible to see God?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can
see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this, too.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
contradictions?*
DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't view them as contradictions,
Perry. Instead, we view *your* understanding to be in error. Clearly
the Bible does show that man can see God. If you fail to understand that
concept, then you will never understand why LDS folks don't see it as a
contradiction.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP!
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no
man see me, and live.
/_*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the
glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*_/
Dave, how can this be? The revelation to JS in the PoGP contradicts the
Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my opinion, of course! And that is
that if the moses of mormonism saw the mormon god's face and lived, we
must have a different god, for no one can see the face of the God of the
Bible and live!
I have read only the first few verses of the book of Moses in the Pearl
of Greast Price (one of the mormon standard works consisting of
revelation to JS from god, right?), and already have found two glaring
contradictions!!! Why should I read further?
*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
contradictions?*
Perry
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://www.langlitz.com
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