I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.
DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God wanted him to see his body, but not his
face. That is why he said to Moses......
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back
parts: but my face shall not be seen. Ex 33
.........Do you deny that Moses saw God's back parts? If not, then it
is clearly obvious that Moses saw God. (And if you do deny it, then it
would seem you are contradicting the Bible.) That does not mean he
didn't also see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or column
of smoke. Sure...he saw those things too. But most important to this
discussion....Moses literally saw God. If you wish to ignore
that simple fact Perry, that is your privilege. I see it as denying
the word of God to do so though. Furthermore, I can't believe there
would be any Bible believing Christian TTer who would agree with you.
Am I wrong?
The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and
survived (endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.
That's pure nonsense, Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as
saying.......
*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with
him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could
endure his presence.*
..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2) would bother you, and yet
you apparently have no problem with the Bible when it says in Num
14.......
[14] And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they
have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art
seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that
thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a
pillar of fire by night.
..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses saw God face to
face, and the Bible tells us that the Lord has been seen
face to face....then who do you suppose saw the Lord
IF it was not Moses? FWIW....I do not believe that the phrase saw
God face to face or the phrase seen face to face
literally means in either case that God's face was seen. I have had
experiences where I've stood face to face with people, and have not
actually looked at their faces, but rather have handed them something
(such as money) or received something from them (such as a coupon)
without glancing upward to see their actual face. But....I did see
their bodies, or parts thereof.
none of the verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this
aspect of God's appearance anyway.
Again........that is nonsense, Perry. I previously quoted
Num 12.......
[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not
in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:
wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Why do you think the the term similitude was used,
Perry? How else do you suppose they would say that Moses actually saw
God, instead of just a burning bush, pillar of fire or column of
smoke? The term similitude was expressly used to
prevent naysayers from saying that Moses did not really see
God. Even so....it is sadly obvious that contrary to the Bible, those
naysayers even today continue to claim Moses did not see God.
according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY
man, could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more
proof that the mormon god is not the biblical God.
I never claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you would think
that is a contradiction boggles the mind.
I don't "still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still
know" it does.
The contradiction is in your mind, Perry. And, your assumption
that God cannot be seen is in error, and non Biblical. You have been
shown just a few Biblical passages that contradict your theory, Perry.
(There are others as well, but there is little reason to discuss them
since you have rejected the obvious ones.)
I have been accused of being stubborn in my LDS biased beliefs,
Perry....but you certainly have overshadowed me this time. It is
overtly obvious that you have no desire to understand the truth of this
matter as found in the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the Bible
explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and as such it
must be from Satan........do you disagree?
How about my second question, Dave.
What's the point of going on to the second question, Perry? When
I show you specific Bible passages that clearly refute your erroneous
theories, and you just continue to disbelieve the Bible. Anything I
would try to explain to you from LDS passages would be less productive
than talking to a brick.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave wrote:
After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2 contradicts the Bible?
I do know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.
Was it a burning bush? A glowing mass? A pillar of fire? A column of
Smoke? You see, God appeared however he wished to appear to Moses. It
appears to have been different each time, and Moses certainly saw
whatever it was that god wanted him to see...and in the appearance on
Sinai, God certainly took a form that moses could "see". However, on
Sinai there was an aspect of this appearance upon which no man could
look and live. God called this his "face". He protected moses from
gazing upon this aspect of his appearance, so it reasonable to believe
that in future meetings Moses did not see god's "face" or he would have
died as the boble states.
The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and
survived (endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.
And, none of the verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this
aspect of God's appearance anyway.
Maybe the mormon moses can look at the mormon god's face (and, since
you think the mormon god is a man, he must have a literal "face") and
survive, but , according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical
Moses, nor ANY man, could look at the biblical God's "face" and
survive. yet more proof that the mormon god is not the biblical God.
Thanks for the effort you put into this, Dave, but I don't
"still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it does.
I am sorry that your mormon faith causes you not to be able to see
this.
------------------------
How about my second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do
not have to look it up:
It is a mormon belief that the mormon god was once a man (from Kolob)
who was a created being (if not as a man, at least created as a
spirit). Yet, in the PoGP (one of your standard works consisting of
revelation to JS, right?) I find the following, which appears to say
that the mormon god had no beginning ("without beginning of days"):
MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God
Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or
end of years; and is not this endless?
Now, how is it that the mormon god had a beginning, yet is "without
beginning of days"?
Thank you in advance, Dave, for taking the time to explain this to me.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18 -0800
DAVEH: Since you brought up Moses below, let's look what happened to
him in Ex 33...
*[11] And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh
unto his friend. *
...............At the end of the same chapter, the Lord tells
Moses........
*[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man
see me, and live.
[21] And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt
stand upon a rock:
[22] And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will
put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while
I pass by:
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back
parts_: but my face shall not be seen.*
...........*_thou shalt see my back parts_*, and as evidence that
actually happened, ch 34 explains........
*[34] But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took
the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the
children of Israel that which he was commanded.
[35] And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of
_Moses' face shone:_ and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until
he went in to speak with him.
*...............That something miraculous had happened that caused
*_Moses' face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies what Moses saw........
*[5] And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in
the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both
came forth.
[6] And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I
the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak
unto him in a dream.
_[7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in
dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:_
wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?*
.........Notice that he distinguishes between Moses and those of lesser
faith. And he clearly points out that Moses beheld the *_similitude of
the LORD_*.
So Perry, would you not admit that this clearly shows that Moses saw
God? That Moses did not see God's face is of little consequence.
Moses probably never saw the bottom of God's feet either.
But....according to the Bible he certainly saw God.
After reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2.........
/_*And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory
of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.*_/
..........contradicts the Bible? I certainly don't see any
contradiction, especially since the Bible quotes the Lord as speaking
*face to face* to Moses. Are you clear on that, Perry........or do you
continue to believe it is impossible to see God?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can
see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this,
too.
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave,
aren't alarmed by these contradictions?*
DAVEH: Because LDS folks like me don't view them as contradictions,
Perry. Instead, we view *your* understanding to be in error. Clearly
the Bible does show that man can see God. If you fail to understand
that concept, then you will never understand why LDS folks don't see it
as a contradiction.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP!
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall
no man see me, and live.
/_*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and
the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*_/
Dave, how can this be? The revelation to JS in the PoGP contradicts the
Bible!!! Which is correct? I have my opinion, of course! And that is
that if the moses of mormonism saw the mormon god's face and lived, we
must have a different god, for no one can see the face of the God of
the Bible and live!
I have read only the first few verses of the book of Moses in the Pearl
of Greast Price (one of the mormon standard works consisting of
revelation to JS from god, right?), and already have found two glaring
contradictions!!! Why should I read further?
*Why is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
contradictions?*
Perry
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