Dave, the subject line defines the topic I originally brought up and thought
we were discussing. This has gotten way off topic. I guess since you want to
drag me back into this off-topic discussion before you answer my second
question you have successfully dodged having to weave an answer. I will not
continue to argue off topic.
It is a mistake to argue the contradictions of the mormon heretical
extra-biblical works, when mormonism fails on many many more egregious
points than the obvious contradictions of the Bom, PoGP, and D&C.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 00:06:16 -0800
*Dave, ignoring all of your caustic insults*
DAVEH: I find it rather amusing that you would say that,
Perry.......considering you implied that I am Satan's messenger boy!.......
/My argument is not with you...it is with Satan...and Dave is our messenger
boy......./
........and........
/Furthermore, Satan (through Dave) has repeatedly issued...../
..........Did you think you could toss out *caustic insults*, without
reaping the same?
* you have drifted off topic to the point of accusing me of dening things I
have admitted,*
DAVEH: I don't recall you ever admitting that Moses saw God. If I am
wrong, Perry.....just admit it now.
*If you can stay on topic and stop trying to accuse me of that, then we can
continue.......*And*......**perhaps we can continue if you stop the caustic
remarks *
DAVEH: And IF I were to say that if you don't stop accusing me of being
Satan's messenger boy, then we can not continue! Seems to me you are a bit
overly sensitive, Perry. You call me Satan's messenger boy and then get
your nose bent out of shape when I use *caustic insults*?!?!?! Do you
remember when another TTer said to me........
you big cry baby
.......Seems like those words are more befitting of you, Perry.
*The discussion NEVER was about whether or not Moses saw God*
DAVEH: Huh?!?!?! Where did you get that notion??? That is exactly what
the discussion was about, Perry! I initially made the comment........
*Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God.*
...........And, here are two of your related comments.......
*Dave,
You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can see
God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this, too. *
.........and.......
*Dave,
Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP! *
...........Now, please realize that I stipulated that Moses was *not
*allowed to see God's face at that time, and quoted (and noted) passages
that said such. But, the discussion precipitated from my initial
comment....../*Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God */and you
implied that was contradictory to what the Bible teaches. In the process
of explaining in detail that the Bible sided with me on this matter, you
then tried to change the nature of the discussion to say that man could not
see God's face and live. As you can see from the above comments you made
prior to that time, seeing God's face was not an issue initially, nor at
any time subsequent, even though you tried to make it an issue to avoid
admission of being in error. The whole point of this discussion was
whether man could or could not see God and live. The Bible is very clear
on this. Moses did see God's back parts. Do you disagree, Perry?
*Are you back up to speed? if so, continue, but if you insist on carrying
it off into the woods again, I won;t continue. *
DAVEH: That's quite a threat from a guy who tried to change the whole
nature of our discussion.
Now.....assuming you will either answer my above question (/Moses did
see God's back parts. Do you disagree, Perry?/) positively, or
negatively....let me move ahead. I assume you believe Jesus is fully God?
If so, how do you explain the apparent contradiction that people saw him
and did not die from seeing him?
*Either the mormon god had a beginning or he didn't...Moses 1:3 says he did
not...you say he did. Go for it. *
DAVEH: There is no point in getting another discussion started when we
have not yet finished this one, Perry. The Bible mentions many people
seeing God, and living despite seeing him. To me, that is a big
contradiction of Protestant theology. And no....I didn't say that to
irritate you. It is just one aspect of Protestantism that fascinates me,
and I assume you would have a similar view as most Protestants about
this....so, that's why I am asking you the question. How do you
rationalize that apparent contradiction?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
*Dave, ignoring all of your caustic insults* in the diatribe below, let me
say that I did not give up on the discussion because I felt defeated or
had no point to make. I ended that discussion because I realized that, 1,
we would not agree, which we really never have, and that is no surprise,
and 2, because, as you often do,* you have drifted off topic to the point
of accusing me of dening things I have admitted,* and even have written
about and agreed with. *If you can stay on topic and stop trying to accuse
me of that, then we can continue.* But when you begin to drift I can see
that there is no use in continuing.
Let me try to bring you back on topic, and *perhaps we can continue if you
stop the caustic remarks *and stay on topic...the topic was whether or not
Moses could see God's "FACE" and survive. You have taken it entirely off
track, changing the topic is on whether or not Moses saw god at all. Way
off topic. Once you do that, and begin to state that I said that Moses did
not see god, you are dealing in a fantasy world, and I lose interest in
trying to bring you back around...it begins to feel quit futile after a
few exchanges. *The discussion NEVER was about whether or not Moses saw
God*...the point is, and I made it clear, that Moses did see whatever god
presented to him to see...whether it was a burning bush, his glory, a
pillar of file, a column of smoke...Moses saw them all. However, he did
not see god's "face", whatever god presented that he referred to as his
"face". His "face", Moses did not see, or else he would have died, for no
man could see that and live.
*Are you back up to speed? if so, continue, but if you insist on carrying
it off into the woods again, I won;t continue. *
And for the second topic, it certainly is not a theological matter...it is
a logical matter. *Either the mormon god had a beginning or he
didn't...Moses 1:3 says he did not...you say he did. Go for it. *
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:35:28 -0800
*on to my second question**...how the mormon god, who is "without
beginning of days" is also a created being, thus, with a finite
beginning. *
DAVEH: I hardly looked at, or even thought about it Perry. If you so
stubbornly deny the obvious message (about Moses seeing God) in the
Bible, to discuss something else that requires a lot more understanding
of LDS theology is futile. You would never be able to understand it from
my perspective due to your preconceived notions. The logic for
understanding that it does not contradict the Bible requires a much
broader understanding of the Bible message than you would be capable of
comprehending.....which has become obvious from your perception of the
Moses saw God passages we've just discussed. And.....you've stated your
goal to denigrate my beliefs.......So why bother.
Over the years I've been on TT, I've come to realize that most TTers
(I won't even say Protestants) are very entrenched in their beliefs to
the point that they cannot think out of the box. I suppose you could say
the same about me, but I perceive it from a much broader perspective.
You have confined your understanding to a very limited view of how the
Bible is perceived, which is heavily rooted in tradition. Because
theological theories have been founded centuries ago, and been previously
thoroughly discussed by historical scholars, it doesn't seem to leave you
much room to expand your thinking. The assumption that what you have
been taught is superior to that which the Lord may have subsequently
revealed clouds your thinking. Instead of looking at it with an open
mind, you simply have declared LDS theology to be evil, and apparently
assume that anything I believe is absolutely contrary to the Bible. At
least that's the way I see it, Perry.
Basically.....I would be happy to discuss your above question with
somebody who would actually be willing to have a meaningful discussion
about it without getting his nose bent out of shape and curtly
declares.......
*I am done with this topic. I have stated my position. /*Fini.*/ *We are
not destined to agree, and that is okay with me.* Get you last shot in,
then... *
.........Of course you are done with it, Perry......your assumption was
shown to be in error. But I was not done at all.....I had only discussed
one aspect....Moses seeing God. It is obvious that your theory
contradicts the Bible, and we had not yet even discussed the other
evidences the Bible gives to show the weakness of your position. How can
the discussion possibly be *Fini *when we have covered just a narrow
window of the topic....Moses? Yes, you have stated your opinion, but you
failed to allow the discussion to continue to the point of considering
the other evidences the Bible gives that contradict your theory. In
fairness to you, I had not yet offered that evidence due to nature of our
initial few exchanges being limited to Moses seeing God. But since you
have prematurely ended the discussion, it brought termination to what I
consider to be a fascinating contradiction in Protestant
theology.....that most Protestants believe God could not be seen (without
severe consequence), but yet Jesus....fully being God....was seen by
many. So....it is quite apparent that you really don't want to have a
meaningful discussion about these things Perry. Hence my reluctance to
continue on to another topic without the ability to appropriately
conclude the first one. But....if another TTer (other than an
anti-Mormon) would be willing to discuss this aspect, I'd sure appreciate
it.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
My second question? If you have no rationalization, just say so instead
of dodging it.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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