the subject line defines the topic I originally brought up and
thought we were discussing.
DAVEH: I don't see it that way at all, Perry. Most of the time, the
subject line fails to reflect the nature of the discussion. In this
case, you created a subject line that was not pertinent to the nature
of the discussion. You assumed that the PofGP said that Moses saw
God's face. I specifically explained why that was not so.
================================================================
I agree, Perry. God wanted him to see his body, but not his
face. That is why he said to Moses......
[23] And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back
parts: but my face shall not be seen. Ex 33
================================================================
The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw god's "face" and
survived (endured) it. The Bible says that is not possible.
That's pure nonsense, Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as
saying.......
*MOS 1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with
him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could
endure his presence.*
..........Now let me ask why this (Mos 1:2) would bother you, and yet
you apparently have no problem with the Bible when it says in Num
14.......
[14] And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they
have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art
seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that
thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a
pillar of fire by night.
..........If LDS Scripture tells us that Moses saw God face to
face, and the Bible tells us that the Lord has been seen
face to face....then who do you suppose saw the Lord
IF it was not Moses? FWIW....I do not believe that the phrase saw
God face to face or the phrase seen face to face
literally means in either case that God's face was seen. I have
had
experiences where I've stood face to face with people, and have not
actually looked at their faces, but rather have handed them something
(such as money) or received something from them (such as a coupon)
without glancing upward to see their actual face. But....I did see
their bodies, or parts thereof.
================================================================
according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the biblical Moses, nor ANY
man, could look at the biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more
proof that the mormon god is not the biblical God.
I never claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you
would think
that is a contradiction boggles the mind.
================================================================
.............Note my comment FWIW....I do not believe that the
phrase saw
God face to face or the phrase seen face to face
literally means in either case that God's face was seen, and my
subsequent comment I never claimed that Moses saw God's face.
which was meant to make it clear to you that you imprinting your own
thinking as to what Mormons believe. Just because you think (or have
stated in the subject line) that the PofGP says that Moses saw God's
face does not make it so. That's why it boggled my mind.....you didn't
ask what I believe, you simply stated it as if I believe it. But....I
shouldn't be surprised, as I've come to expect that from you.
It is a mistake to argue the contradictions of the mormon heretical
extra-biblical works, when mormonism fails on many many more egregious
points than the obvious contradictions of the Bom, PoGP, and D&C.
DAVEH: And that's why you fail to understand why we don't pay much
heed to your arguments against LDS theology, Perry. You assume we
believe one way, and instead of asking, you just blunder ahead as if
you understand LDS theology, and then proceed to tell us what we
believe. It is a common error many anti-Mormons make. As I see it,
you would much rather destroy Mormonism than seek to understand it.
Have I correctly analyzed your position, Perry?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, the subject line defines the topic I originally
brought up and thought we were discussing. This has gotten way off
topic. I guess since you want to drag me back into this off-topic
discussion before you answer my second question you have successfully
dodged having to weave an answer. I will not continue to argue off
topic.
It is a mistake to argue the contradictions of the mormon
heretical extra-biblical works, when mormonism fails on many many more
egregious points than the obvious contradictions of the Bom, PoGP, and
D&C.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 00:06:16 -0800
*Dave, ignoring all of your caustic insults*
DAVEH: I find it rather amusing that you would say that,
Perry.......considering you implied that I am Satan's messenger
boy!.......
/My argument is not with you...it is with Satan...and Dave is our
messenger boy......./
........and........
/Furthermore, Satan (through Dave) has repeatedly issued...../
..........Did you think you could toss out *caustic insults*, without
reaping the same?
* you have drifted off topic to the point of accusing me of dening
things I have admitted,*
DAVEH: I don't recall you ever admitting that Moses saw God. If I am
wrong, Perry.....just admit it now.
*If you can stay on topic and stop trying to accuse me of that, then we
can continue.......*And*......**perhaps we can continue if you stop the
caustic remarks *
DAVEH: And IF I were to say that if you don't stop accusing me of
being Satan's messenger boy, then we can not continue! Seems to me you
are a bit overly sensitive, Perry. You call me Satan's messenger boy
and then get your nose bent out of shape when I use *caustic
insults*?!?!?! Do you remember when another TTer said to me........
you big cry baby
.......Seems like those words are more befitting of you, Perry.
*The discussion NEVER was about whether or not Moses saw God*
DAVEH: Huh?!?!?! Where did you get that notion??? That is exactly
what the discussion was about, Perry! I initially made the
comment........
*Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God.*
...........And, here are two of your related comments.......
*Dave,
You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man can
see God." If it so clear, please show me so I can be clear on this,
too. *
.........and.......
*Dave,
Moses cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the PoGP! *
...........Now, please realize that I stipulated that Moses was *not
*allowed to see God's face at that time, and quoted (and noted)
passages that said such. But, the discussion precipitated from my
initial comment....../*Clearly the Bible does show that man can see God
*/and you implied that was contradictory to what the Bible teaches. In
the process of explaining in detail that the Bible sided with me on
this matter, you then tried to change the nature of the discussion to
say that man could not see God's face and live. As you can see from
the above comments you made prior to that time, seeing God's face was
not an issue initially, nor at any time subsequent, even though you
tried to make it an issue to avoid admission of being in error. The
whole point of this discussion was whether man could or could not see
God and live. The Bible is very clear on this. Moses did see God's
back parts. Do you disagree, Perry?
*Are you back up to speed? if so, continue, but if you insist on
carrying it off into the woods again, I won;t continue. *
DAVEH: That's quite a threat from a guy who tried to change the whole
nature of our discussion.
Now.....assuming you will either answer my above question (/Moses
did see God's back parts. Do you disagree, Perry?/) positively, or
negatively....let me move ahead. I assume you believe Jesus is fully
God? If so, how do you explain the apparent contradiction that people
saw him and did not die from seeing him?
*Either the mormon god had a beginning or he didn't...Moses 1:3 says he
did not...you say he did. Go for it. *
DAVEH: There is no point in getting another discussion started when
we have not yet finished this one, Perry. The Bible mentions many
people seeing God, and living despite seeing him. To me, that is a big
contradiction of Protestant theology. And no....I didn't say that to
irritate you. It is just one aspect of Protestantism that fascinates
me, and I assume you would have a similar view as most Protestants
about this....so, that's why I am asking you the question. How do you
rationalize that apparent contradiction?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
*Dave, ignoring all of your caustic
insults* in the diatribe below, let me say that I did not give up on
the discussion because I felt defeated or had no point to make. I ended
that discussion because I realized that, 1, we would not agree, which
we really never have, and that is no surprise, and 2, because, as you
often do,* you have drifted off topic to the point of accusing me of
dening things I have admitted,* and even have written about and agreed
with. *If you can stay on topic and stop trying to accuse me of that,
then we can continue.* But when you begin to drift I can see that there
is no use in continuing.
Let me try to bring you back on topic, and *perhaps we can continue if
you stop the caustic remarks *and stay on topic...the topic was whether
or not Moses could see God's "FACE" and survive. You have taken it
entirely off track, changing the topic is on whether or not Moses saw
god at all. Way off topic. Once you do that, and begin to state that I
said that Moses did not see god, you are dealing in a fantasy world,
and I lose interest in trying to bring you back around...it begins to
feel quit futile after a few exchanges. *The discussion NEVER was about
whether or not Moses saw God*...the point is, and I made it clear, that
Moses did see whatever god presented to him to see...whether it was a
burning bush, his glory, a pillar of file, a column of smoke...Moses
saw them all. However, he did not see god's "face", whatever god
presented that he referred to as his "face". His "face", Moses did not
see, or else he would have died, for no man could see that and live.
*Are you back up to speed? if so, continue, but if you insist on
carrying it off into the woods again, I won;t continue. *
And for the second topic, it certainly is not a theological matter...it
is a logical matter. *Either the mormon god had a beginning or he
didn't...Moses 1:3 says he did not...you say he did. Go for it. *
Perry
From: Dave Hansen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the PoGP!
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:35:28 -0800
*on to my second question**...how the mormon god, who is "without
beginning of days" is also a created being, thus, with a finite
beginning. *
DAVEH: I hardly looked at, or even thought about it Perry. If you so
stubbornly deny the obvious message (about Moses seeing God) in the
Bible, to discuss something else that requires a lot more understanding
of LDS theology is futile. You would never be able to understand it
from my perspective due to your preconceived notions. The logic for
understanding that it does not contradict the Bible requires a much
broader understanding of the Bible message than you would be capable of
comprehending.....which has become obvious from your perception of the
Moses saw God passages we've just discussed. And.....you've stated
your goal to denigrate my beliefs.......So why bother.
Over the years I've been on TT, I've come to realize that most TTers
(I won't even say Protestants) are very entrenched in their beliefs to
the point that they cannot think out of the box. I suppose you could
say the same about me, but I perceive it from a much broader
perspective. You have confined your understanding to a very limited
view of how the Bible is perceived, which is heavily rooted in
tradition. Because theological theories have been founded centuries
ago, and been previously thoroughly discussed by historical scholars,
it doesn't seem to leave you much room to expand your thinking. The
assumption that what you have been taught is superior to that which the
Lord may have subsequently revealed clouds your thinking. Instead of
looking at it with an open mind, you simply have declared LDS theology
to be evil, and apparently assume that anything I believe is absolutely
contrary to the Bible. At least that's the way I see it, Perry.
Basically.....I would be happy to discuss your above question with
somebody who would actually be willing to have a meaningful discussion
about it without getting his nose bent out of shape and curtly
declares.......
*I am done with this topic. I have stated my position. /*Fini.*/ *We
are not destined to agree, and that is okay with me.* Get you last shot
in, then... *
.........Of course you are done with it, Perry......your assumption was
shown to be in error. But I was not done at all.....I had only
discussed one aspect....Moses seeing God. It is obvious that your
theory contradicts the Bible, and we had not yet even discussed the
other evidences the Bible gives to show the weakness of your position.
How can the discussion possibly be *Fini *when we have covered just a
narrow window of the topic....Moses? Yes, you have stated your
opinion, but you failed to allow the discussion to continue to the
point of considering the other evidences the Bible gives that
contradict your theory. In fairness to you, I had not yet offered that
evidence due to nature of our initial few exchanges being limited to
Moses seeing God. But since you have prematurely ended the discussion,
it brought termination to what I consider to be a fascinating
contradiction in Protestant theology.....that most Protestants believe
God could not be seen (without severe consequence), but yet
Jesus....fully being God....was seen by many. So....it is quite
apparent that you really don't want to have a meaningful discussion
about these things Perry. Hence my reluctance to continue on to
another topic without the ability to appropriately conclude the first
one. But....if another TTer (other than an anti-Mormon) would be
willing to discuss this aspect, I'd sure appreciate it.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
My second question? If you have no
rationalization, just say so instead of dodging it.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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