JD says As with many words, "predestined" might carry a different meaning to you than to myself.
There is no more Different meaning than that of the "FALL"
The FALL?
Well it is A MOST IMPORTANT LDS Doctrine!
"It is not possible to believe in Christ and his atoning sacrifice, in the true and full sense required to gain salvation, without at the same time believing and accepting the true doctrine of the fall" (NWAF, p. 82).
What a BLESSING!
"Properly understood, it becomes apparent that the fall of Adam is one of the greatest blessings ever given of God to mankind" (McConkie, NWAF, p. 87).
Apostle John A. Widtsoe said that "In Joseph Smith's philosophy
of existence Adam and Eve were raised to a foremost place among the children of men, second only to the Savior. Their act was to be acclaimed. They were the greatest figures of the ages. The so-called 'fall' became a necessary, honorable act in carrying out the plan of the Almighty" (Joseph Smith—Seeker After Truth, p.160).
Progress?
"Adam fell, but he fell in the right direction. He fell toward the goal.... Adam fell, but he fell upward. Jesus says to us, "Come up higher" (Deseret News, Church Section, 31 July 1965, p. 7).
Breaking God's law is NOT ALWAYS a SIN?
Under the heading, "'TRANSGRESSION' NOT 'SIN' OF ADAM," Joseph Fielding Smith said that "the fall of man came as a blessing in disguise, ... I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin.... it is not always a sin to transgress a law" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.114-15).
"This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!" (Ibid., p. 115).
"The 'fall' of Adam and Eve was not a sin but an essential act upon which mortality depends" (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, p. 15).
If the FALL was such a BLESSING then
Why did they feel guilty & Afraid, why HIDE from God?
Why did it introduce DEATH to mankind?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, I don't know if it surprises me. But, I do not think we have given enough attention to developing a thorough understanding of their existence before and after the "fall." It seems to me that the "fall" is more clearly taught in Church Tradition than exegetically. But I am guilty of my own criticism at this point !As with many words, "predestined" might carry a different meaning to you than to myself. I believe that A&E were going to fail, and in this observation, one could argue that they were predestined to fail. But I would never use that word in this case because of the confusion it might cause. Adam and Eve's story is not about the "fall," IMO, Rather, their account is the first sentence in the story of the Incarnation. I see them as the first to receive the lesson that - as law breakers -- there must be more to their lives than themselves and their obedience/disobedience. And it is always "obedience slash disobedience," isn't it? Those two terms cannot be separated -------------------- except in Christ. If we do not&nbs p;see their story (and again, this is my feeble consideration) as INCOMPLETE apart for their eventual attachment to Christ, we miss the point and become Plan B disciples. To my way of thinking, the bible message is about Law versus Grace -- death versus life. And that story is not complete, hence the creation event is not complete, apart from all that concerns us and the Christ (our Creator).Man is a sinner apart from Christ's consideration -- even if he is concerned with but a single consideration of law (thou shalt not eat) and, in time, man will validate that truth.jd
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Hansen <dave@langlitz.com>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:06:45 -0800
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E
No. Actually, I have never heard this question discussed
DAVEH: That rather surprises me. I remember asking Perry a similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That rather surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians (including Protestants, RCC and independents) believe that God wanted A&E not to transgress. IFF that was actually his intention, then it seems an interesting thought avenue to pursue. Yet, the few who've responded seem to indicate that they have no interest in pondering what the Lord intended to be. To me, that seems very strange. Does it strike you as rather curious, John?
were A & E predestined to sin?
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask that question. I do not know what you folks b elieve about predestination and foreordination. Since you apparently do not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem to me that you would not believe in either. But....I don't want to assume such without at least asking you first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:No. Actually, I have never heard this question discussed. You asked me to comment on a question -- perhaps a week ago, now. Aaaahhhhhh, was it "were A & E predestined to sin?jd
DAVEH: May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I am curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would have happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed. Does that discussion ever come up with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Look -- what are we going to discuss here on TT? We have pretty much said all that can be said about any number of subjects.jd
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