Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--A&E

[Dave Hansen]

He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone? if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. DAVEH:   Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the A&E situation of which I am most keen.   One of my earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit.  He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing death.  Even though the kid was less than religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again.     I must be missing something about your (forgive me....but let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall.  If A&E had not transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed?  In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him from doing it!  Don't you think that at some point---probably much sooner than later---one of A&E's children would have fallen?  Or do you believe that of the billions who descended from A&E, none would ever have transgressed?  Just what are the chances of that happening.....zilch?!?!?!     So....why do most Christians blame A&E for the misery in the world, when it was inevitable.  From my perspective....not only was it expected, but it was planned.   And.......evidently you believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from before the world was created.....that it was planned?  (Please let me know if you do not believe such.)  Yet you apparently don't believe that God wanted it to happen that way.  Do you see why your perspective perplexes me?  It doesn't seem logical.  Like I said....perhaps I'm missing something about the way you understand it..... Judy wrote: I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then.  Why would the Lord want that for them/us? Terry Clifton wrote: God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times I am given that option.  God will give you the option, but it is not His desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God, wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices that bring pain and death. Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness, starvation, disease.Do you think that maybe He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone? Dave Hansen wrote: DAVEH:   One more fact from your perspective, Terry.........I assume you believe that God did not want A&E to sin though, even though he knew they would.  Is that correct? Terry Clifton wrote: Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin. Fact two: God hates sin.  Fact three: Getting people to sin is the top priority of Satan. It's over.  We know who to blame.  Nothing to discuss. Dave Hansen wrote: No.  Actually,  I have never heard this question discussed DAVEH:   That rather surprises me.  I remember asking Perry a similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off.  That rather surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.      As I understand, most Christians (including Protestants, RCC and independents) believe that God wanted A&E not to transgress.  IFF that was actually his intention, then it seems an interesting thought avenue to pursue.   Yet, the few who've responded seem to indicate that they have no interest in pondering what the Lord intended to be.   To me, that seems very strange.  Does it strike you as rather curious, John? were A & E predestined to sin? DAVEH:   Yes, I did ask that question.  I do not know what you folks believe about predestination and foreordination.  Since you apparently do not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem to me that you would not believe in either.  But....I don't want to assume such without at least asking you first. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No.  Actually,  I have never heard this question discussed.     You asked me to comment on a question  --  perhaps a week ago, now.  Aaaahhhhhh,   was it "were A & E predestined to sin?    jd    DAVEH:  May I suggest another topic of interest to me?  I am curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would have happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed.  Does that discussion ever come up with you folks? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:    Look  --  what are we going to discuss here on TT?   We have pretty much said all that can be said about any number of subjects.    jd