Genesis 2:7 ...man became a living soul. This is only said of
men. No where in the Bible will you find a reference to the soul of a
horse or a monkey. Animals were not made to have eternal lives any
more than trees or vines. They were created for man to use, to eat, to
have dominion over.
Terry
===============================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
monkeys and horses
do not have a soul.
DAVEH: ??? Aren't you speculating when you make that claim, Terry?
What Biblical evidence supports that theory?
Terry Clifton wrote:
I won't speculate, Dave, but I should point out that monkeys and
horses
do not have a soul.
==================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
He knew they would sin. He did not plan
for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.
DAVEH: I don't quite see the difference, Terry. However, I will
admit to being biased by my belief that He did plan
for them to fall.
As to their descendants missing the mark, who knows? All
we
can
do is
speculate, and speculation often leads to error.
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree on this one, Terry. IMHO, it is safe
to speculate that some (if not most) of A&E's descendants would
have transgressed. Look at A&E....it didn't take them too long to
transgress. Do you think Cain, Hitler or any of the other villains of
history would have remained angels? I submit to you that there would
proportionally be very few who would not have transgressed. Consider
another example. Adults have preached to kids ad nauseam to avoid
smoking, alcohol, sex and drugs. Just denying them such, entices many
it seems. So....would you reasonably expect any but a few of
A&E's descendants to withstand the temptations that Eve failed to
avoid?
Here's something to ponder: What effect would monkeys, horses or
whatever animals inhabiting the Garden of Eden eating the forbidden
fruit have had IFF A&E hadn't?
Terry Clifton wrote:
This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have
been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to
accept.
God is omnicient, He knew they would sin. He did not plan
for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.
As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All
we
can do is
speculate, and speculation often leads to error.
=================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
He wanted Adam and Eve to
ruin it for everyone?
if they had not they would have
saved
themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache,
suffering,
and misery that has been the human lot since then.
DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one
facet of the A&E situation of which I am most keen. One of my
earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me
in which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden
fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live
forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than
religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being
intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again.
I must be missing something about your (forgive me....but let me
say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not
transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have
transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do
something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at
some point---probably much sooner than later---one of A&E's
children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of the billions who
descended from A&E, none would ever have transgressed? Just what
are the chances of that happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do most Christians blame A&E for the misery in the
world, when it was inevitable. From my perspective....not only was it
expected, but it was planned. And.......evidently you believe that as
well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from
before the world was created.....that it was planned? (Please let me
know if you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe
that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective
perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I said....perhaps I'm
missing something about the way you understand it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they
would have saved themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache,
suffering,
and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the
Lord
want that for them/us?
Terry Clifton wrote:
God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no
matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times I
am given that option. God will give you the option, but it is not His
desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God,
wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices
that bring pain and death.
Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness,
starvation, disease.Do you think that maybe He wanted Adam and Eve
to
ruin it for everyone?
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: One more fact from your perspective, Terry.........I assume
you believe that God did not want A&E to sin though, even though he
knew they would. Is that correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin.
Fact two: God hates sin.
Fact three: Getting people to sin is the top priority of Satan.
It's over. We know who to blame. Nothing to discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
No. Actually, I have never heard this question
discussed
DAVEH: That rather surprises me. I remember
asking
Perry
a
similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That rather
surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians (including Protestants, RCC and
independents) believe that God wanted A&E not to transgress. IFF
that was actually his intention, then it seems an interesting thought
avenue to pursue. Yet, the few who've responded seem to indicate that
they have no interest in pondering what the Lord intended to be. To
me, that seems very strange. Does it strike you as rather curious,
John?
were A & E predestined to sin?
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask that question. I do not know what you folks
believe about predestination and foreordination. Since you apparently
do not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem to me
that you would not believe in either. But....I don't want to assume
such without at least asking you first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
No. Actually, I have never heard this
question
discussed.
You asked me to comment on a question -- perhaps a week ago, now.
Aaaahhhhhh, was it "were A & E predestined to sin?
jd
DAVEH:
May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I am curious as to if
any of you folks ever consider what would have happened IF Adam and Eve
had not transgressed. Does that discussion ever come up with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Look -- what are we going to discuss
here
on
TT?
We have pretty much said all that can be said about any number of
subjects.
jd
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