Spoken like a true trader in slave
rabbits! iz
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005
8:03 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New
Subject--A&E
Genesis 2:7 ...man
became a living soul. This is only said of men. No where
in the Bible will you find a reference to the soul of a horse or a
monkey. Animals were not made to have eternal lives any more than trees
or vines. They were created for man to use, to eat, to have dominion
over.
Terry
===============================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
monkeys and horses do not have a
soul.
DAVEH: ??? Aren't you speculating when you make that claim, Terry?
What Biblical evidence supports that theory?
Terry Clifton wrote:
I won't speculate, Dave, but I should point out that monkeys and horses do not have a soul.
==================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
He knew they would sin. He did
not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big
difference.
DAVEH: I don't quite see the difference, Terry. However, I
will admit to being biased by my belief that He
did plan for them to fall.
As to their descendants
missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation
often leads to error.
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree on this one, Terry. IMHO, it is safe
to speculate that some (if not most) of A&E's descendants would have
transgressed. Look at A&E....it didn't take them too long to
transgress. Do you think Cain, Hitler or any of the other villains of
history would have remained angels? I submit to you that there would
proportionally be very few who would not have transgressed. Consider
another example. Adults have preached to kids ad nauseam to avoid
smoking, alcohol, sex and drugs. Just denying them such, entices
many it seems. So....would you reasonably expect any but a few of A&E's
descendants to withstand the temptations that Eve failed to avoid?
Here's something to ponder: What effect would monkeys,
horses or whatever animals inhabiting the Garden of Eden eating the forbidden
fruit have had IFF A&E hadn't?
Terry Clifton wrote:
This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have been
taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to accept.
God is omnicient, He knew they would
sin. He did not plan for
them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.
As to their descendents
missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation
often leads to error.
=================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for
everyone?
if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the
heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then.
DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one
facet of the A&E situation of which I am most keen. One of my
earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in
which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit.
He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without
experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on
in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks
have sparked that fire again.
I must be missing something about your (forgive me....but
let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not
transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have
transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do
something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at some
point---probably much sooner than later---one of A&E's children would have
fallen? Or do you believe that of the billions who descended from
A&E, none would ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of
that happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do most Christians blame A&E for the misery in
the world, when it was inevitable. From my perspective....not only was it
expected, but it was planned. And.......evidently you believe that
as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from before
the world was created.....that it was planned? (Please let me know if you
do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God wanted it
to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective perplexes me?
It doesn't seem logical. Like I said....perhaps I'm missing something
about the way you understand it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have to transgress and if
they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the
heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord
Terry Clifton wrote:
God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will
never eat liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how
many times I am given that option. God will give you the option, but it
is not His desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God,
wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices that
bring pain and death.
Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness, starvation,
disease.Do you think that maybe He wanted
Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: One more fact from your
perspective, Terry.........I assume you believe that God did not want A&E
to sin though, even though he knew they would. Is that correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin.
Fact two: God hates sin.
Fact three: Getting people to sin is the top priority of Satan.
It's over. We know who to blame. Nothing to discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
No. Actually, I have
never heard this question discussed
DAVEH: That rather surprises me. I remember asking
Perry a similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That rather
surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians (including Protestants, RCC
and independents) believe that God wanted A&E not to transgress. IFF
that was actually his intention, then it seems an interesting thought avenue to
pursue. Yet, the few who've responded seem to indicate that they
have no interest in pondering what the Lord intended to be. To me,
that seems very strange. Does it strike you as rather curious, John?
were A & E predestined to sin?
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask that question. I do not know what you
folks believe about predestination and foreordination. Since you
apparently do not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem to me
that you would not believe in either. But....I don't want to assume such
without at least asking you first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No. Actually,
I have never heard this question discussed.
You asked me to comment on a question -- perhaps
a week ago, now. Aaaahhhhhh, was it "were A & E predestined to sin?
DAVEH: May I suggest another
topic of interest to me? I am curious as to if any of you folks ever
consider what would have happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed.
Does that discussion ever come up with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Look --
what are we going to discuss here on TT? We have pretty much
said all that can be said about any number of subjects.