Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides

[knpraise]

 

 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> John wrote:
> > ... there is nothing that you believe as a
> > mater of faith that cannot be wrong.
>
> I see it the opposite, John. There is nothing I believe as a matter of
> faith that can be wrong. I'm not expecting you to understand this because
> of our past discussions about faith.

Because I do not agree does not mean that I do not understand what you say,  David.  Without the conviction or passion (that is faith) for the apologetics of our Faith,   there is no substance nor evidential value to what we believe to be true.   Such is the force and application of Hebrews 11:1.

You and I perceive faith very
> differently. Your concept of faith is very much like that of the
> unregenerate sinners to which I preach. I don't say that as a slam.

Really?   Oh,  I forgot  -- you are the one who is over-endowed with empathy!!

Your comparison of my faith to that of unregenerated sinners is comical at best and proves that you are the one who misunderstands.   Just another arrogant conclusion on your part  -- offered in love, of course. 

I'm
> just trying to communicate that your perspective of faith is the popular one

What is my perspective of faith, David.  Put it into words. 

> adopted by most of those in the world. There is a deeper, Biblical
> understanding of faith as something very spiritual.

In a sentence or two, what is your opinion of biblical faith? 
>
> Some passages for your consideration:
>
> 1. Mark 11:24, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire,
> when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."
>
> Ask yourself, how could Jesus make this promise except that "believe"
> carries with it something stronger than just mental assent or mental
> acceptance. How many Christians have there been who have thought they
> prayed and believed, yet they did not receive. We either have to conclude
> that Jesus was lying, or that he has something in mind about that word
> "believe" that is stronger than the common use of that word.

There is another explanation.  But ,  before moving on,   what is that "something"  added to the common use of "believe" that makes such uncommon?   As we have seen recently, it is easy to write stuff.  It is something else to be specific and to answer questions  that cut to the chase.

>
> 2. Mark 16:16-20
> (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth
> not shall be damned.
> (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
> cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
> (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
> shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
> recover.
> (19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
> heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
> (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
> them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

  There is no reason to believe that anyone else heard these words or that Christ was speaking ot anyone else. other than the apostles. 

>
> How many Christians have believed and been baptized but have not seen any of
> these signs follow them? Again, we either have to conclude that the concept
> of faith as taught by Jesus is something greater than the popular concept of
> it, or that Jesus was bearing false testimony here, or perhaps that this
> passage only applies to the immediate believers to whom he spoke. I take
> the position that faith is something more than what most people think faith
> is.

Again, what is the common Christan view of "faith?"      I reject the traditions of men that insists that they are greater than their Lord.  It is unregenerated man who places himself and his works higher than the Creator of the Universe.  
>
> 3. John 14:12
> (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that
> I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I
> go unto my Father.
>
> This passage in John indicates that faith results in miraculous works on the
> part of the one who has it.

In fact, miracles are the primary things eliminated from this passage.  Greater miracles than the Lord's are not possible.   Revealing the mystery of the gospel to a whole world of lost people, something that Jesus did not do in His personal ministry , is what is view.  

 If this is true, then many of those who say
> they have faith really do not, because they are not doing the works that
> Jesus did, and greater works too.  but it is not true. 
>
> 4. Hebrews 11:1
> (1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things
> not seen.
>
> This passage indicates that faith cannot be wrong, for it is both substance
> and evidence. In other words, faith is not speculative, but there is a sure
> foundation to which it is attached.

No such thing is true.   The weak brother in Romans 14 had this very same faith  -  but he was, in fact,  wrong doctrinally speaking.   His faith formed  the   subtance of his hope and the evidence of the intangibles of his religion.  Nowhere does this passage purport to be an explanation of absolute and reasoned "truth."    
>
> 5. Romans 10:14
> (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how
> shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they
> hear without a preacher?
>
> This passage indicates that faith is based upon knowledge. People cannot
> just imagine what they want to believe. They must hear the truth first,
> then faith can come. Therefore, faith is based upon truth. If truth can
> never be wrong, and faith can only be held in that which is true, then when
> some one apprehends something by faith, it can never be wrong.

Nonsense,  You  are wrong nearly as often as Judy.  Hopefully neither of you   will see this as an insult.   It is just a statement of fact. This passage is not talking about the general content of The Faith .  Rather it speaks of the impossibility of a response to Christ apart from being told about Him.  

 
> The key here is distinguishing between that which we apprehend by faith and
> that which we simply acknowledge with our mind because of our opinions and
> ideas. Having some kind of speculation or idea is not faith, no matter how
> much we try to believe it.

It is apparent that "speculation" is the only thing you have going for you in the above !!
>
> The way I see it, no matter how hard someone tries to have faith in a lie,
> with the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the passages above, he
> cannot do it.

You have often complained of the arrogance and immaturity of my convictions.   I have no doubts about what I believe, David  and since such is a  sure sign of absolute truth,   well,   I must be right   --------  something I have believed all along. 

 No matter how hard he tries, there will always be some
> reservation in his spirit. On the other hand, when we perceive with
> conviction and assurance a truth, and we achieve absolute confidence in it,
> we can be sure that such a truth is infallible and can never be wrong. For
> example, when we see that Jesus is our Lord and Messiah with absolute
> conviction, we can be sure that there is no possibility that this viewpoint
> is wrong. It is impossible for such a viewpoint to be wrong.

Believing something to be  absolutely true is not the same as "absolute truth"  except, perhaps, on a personal level.   

>
> The teaching that any idea held by faith has the possibility of being wrong
> is dangerous. It is a natural idea and contrary to anyone who walks by the
> Spirit. The truth is that ideas that come from our objective experiences,

If such were true, faith would not be needed. 

> for example, scientific knowledge, is the kind of knowledge that is
> tentative and provisional. Those who apply themselves to natural methods of
> learning come to realize that all their conclusions are tentative.
> Therefore, the have the tendency to categorize all forms of knowledge in the
> same way. They declare that matters of theology and faith also are
> tentative, but this is only an unproven assumption on their part. They are
> only projecting their own system of learning upon others, including those
> who are spiritual.
>
> The only kind of knowledge that is not tentative is that which comes through
> faith. This is an unpopular concept these days, I know, but this my
> understanding of the Scriptures for what it is worth.

And since it could not possibly be wrong,  what do we do next?
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> If you have not spoken in a language that you
> >> did not learn and did not understand, then you
> >> have not had that experience of being baptized
> >> in the Holy Spirit.
>
> John wrote:
> > This is not a thought that is in line with biblical
> > teaching, my friend. Baptism of the Spirit occurs
> > for me on every occasion, and I mean every occasion
> > that I share songs and hymns in a corporate setting.
> > Eph 5:18-19 is a reference you might consider.
>
> Eph. 5:18-19 is not talking about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This
> passage speaks of a filling that all born again believers may experience.
>

"filling" and "baptism" when used of the Sprit are the same thing.  This is one the elementary aspects of the Faith. I am surprised that you do not yet know of this teaching. 

 

> To understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit, consider passages like those
> found in Acts chapters 2, 8, 10, 11 & 19.
>
> John wrote:
> > At any rate, the "baptism of the Spirit with evidence of
> > speaking in tongues" has such poor theological foundation
> > that it, as a doctrine, is quickly vanishing from the scene
> > of the Pentecostal community.
>
> If such were true, it would only be evidence of an apostasy and unbelief
> within the Pentecostal community. There is a very solid theological
> foundation for the concept that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is
> accompanied by speaking in tongues. It is primarily those whose foundation
> of learning is based upon objective proof that deny such.

Well,  that may be true.  But I do know this  -- those who understand the Bible and accept the Spirit's illumination on this matter also know of its falsehood. 

:-)

jd

 

 

> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
> you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend
> who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> he will be subscribed.