David wrote: >Jesus is speaking to the eleven. We agree on this. Verses 16-18 use >pronouns such as he, they, and them. All of these pronouns in these verses >refer to the creatures to whom they preach. We know this because the >context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every >creature. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching, >because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and >thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned. >Jesus >then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe. Who are >"them that believe"? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the >eleven. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to >interpret the passage another way? Think about that.
Perry wrote: > Sounds to me like you are making a lot of > assumtions that the text does not contain. Such as? Perhaps if you identify the assumptions you are making when you read the passage, it might help me see your point. David wrote: > What if the passage had said, "these signs shall follow them > that believe: they shall receive joy." Would you be trying > to argue that the joy of salvation applied exclusively to the > eleven if that were the case? Perry wrote: > No. The above is a fallacious argument. If I say, "David > you are great", it does not mean that other people are not > great...it just means that at that monment I am telling you > that you are great...later I may tell some others that they > are great, too. I agree with your logical point here, but I think you missed my point. Suppose I said the following to you: "Perry, go and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved and filled with joy." Would you interpret the "He" to refer to you, Perry, or would you interpret the "He" to refer to those to whom you preach? Please offer me an honest answer here, assuming we were not discussing the Mark 16 text. How would you interpret such a paragraph that I wrote to you directly? David wrote: >Verse 19 leaves the parenthetical paragraph of verses 17-18, and so the >pronouns them and they in verses 19 & 20 refer back to the eleven. So I >agree with you that the pronouns they and them in verse 20 refers to the >eleven, but this does not mean that the same pronouns in verses 17-18 also >refer to the eleven. You must consider the text itself and the context. >Verse 15 says, "preach the gospel to every creature." Next verse says, "He >that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Who is the "he that >believeth"? Those to whom they preached, which is "EVERY CREATURE." Perry wrote: > Hasn't Jesus just finished upbraiding the eleven > for their unbelief that he was seen? THEY are > the ones that are considered unbelievers at this > point in the text. So, he tells them their commission, > then the conditions, then the signs. "He that believeth" > refers to the eleven, whom he had just chastised > for unbelief. He is preparing them for their journey, > warning them that their unbelief will cause them to be > damned, and that they must be baptised, too. Surely they were already baptized. If not, how do you explain them baptizing others without them first being baptized? Do you really see that they had a need to be baptized? Jesus told Peter he would not wash his whole body because he was already clean (John 13:10). David wrote: >One more comment: the book of Acts tells me that the mention of signs >following in verse 20 was not limited only to the eleven. The signs >accompanied all those who believed, the eleven, plus others who believed >their preaching. The book of Acts is filled with examples of such. The >eleven were not the exclusive ones who experienced these signs. This is a >matter of Biblical fact, and any revelation you have to the contrary is >false because it would contradict the Biblical record. Perry wrote: > No contradiction in my understanding, Dave. > I never said the signs were limited to the eleven... > you imply I say that. I am saying that in v16-20, > Jesus is only SPEAKING to the eleven about > themselves, so at this point is speaking of signs > that will accompany the eleven as they go out. Sorry for misunderstanding you, Perry. You had originally written, "The key is to identify the antecedent of "He" in verse 16, which I believe to exclusively be the apostles." I think you also had said something like, "the signs in verses 17 & 18 apply only to the apostles." The word "exclusively" means excluding others from participation. Now that I see you do not mean to exclude others from also experiencing this, then I wonder why you think it important to think that this text here applies only to the eleven apostles. For example, I know of a passage that instructs only the 12 to preach, but because I know of other passages that indicate others should preach, I would not be arguing with someone about how this particular admonition to preach was given only to the 12 and should not be taken as being applicable to anybody else. I don't know if you understand what I am saying, but if you believe that the signs also apply to people other than these eleven, why try and make the argument that this particular text does not? Perhaps if you do read it this way, you would be arguing that while you do not see the text as being applicable to anyone other than the eleven, you believe that we can take it to apply also to us by extension in that the eleven are examples for us. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
