David,
Comments embedded below.
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Perry, amen about always believing the Holy Spirit over me, but the Holy
Spirit will not contradict himself or his Word. Therefore, if
contradictions exist, then you have not heard from the Holy Spirit, agreed?
First, I also embedded further commentary in the test of your previous
message which you may have overlooked, so please take the time to read it
all. (I should have indicated that there was more to follow).
Second, I agree about the Holy Spirit not being contradictory, but how do we
know that it is I that have not heard from the Holy spirit, and not YOU that
has not heard from the Holy Spirit?
See more below:
Let's look at the passage again.
Mark 16:14-20
(14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel
to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth
not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall
recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into
heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Jesus is speaking to the eleven. We agree on this. Verses 16-18 use
pronouns such as he, they, and them. All of these pronouns in these verses
refer to the creatures to whom they preach. We know this because the
context of his message to the eleven is preaching the gospel to every
creature. He is giving them the reason why they should be preaching,
because of those to whom they preach, some will believe and be baptized and
thereby be saved, while others would not believe and would be damned.
Jesus
then goes on to teach that sings would follow them that believe. Who are
"them that believe"? Those who believe the gospel being preached by the
eleven. How can you view this any other way? What motivates you to
interpret the passage another way? Think about that.
Sounds to me like you are making a lot of assumtions that the text does not
contain.
What if the passage
had said, "these signs shall follow them that believe: they shall receive
joy." Would you be trying to argue that the joy of salvation applied
exclusively to the eleven if that were the case?
No. The above is a fallacious argument. If I say, "David you are great", it
does not mean that other people are not great...it just means that at that
monment I am telling you that you are great...later I may tell some others
that they are great, too.
Verse 19 leaves the parenthetical paragraph of verses 17-18, and so the
pronouns them and they in verses 19 & 20 refer back to the eleven. So I
agree with you that the pronouns they and them in verse 20 refers to the
eleven, but this does not mean that the same pronouns in verses 17-18 also
refer to the eleven. You must consider the text itself and the context.
Verse 15 says, "preach the gospel to every creature." Next verse says, "He
that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Who is the "he that
believeth"? Those to whom they preached, which is "EVERY CREATURE."
Hasn't Jesus just finished upbraiding the eleven for their unbelief that he
was seen? THEY are the ones that are considered unbelievers at this point in
the text. So, he tells them their commission, then the conditions, then the
signs. "He that believeth" refers to the eleven, whom he had just chastised
for unbelief. He is preparing them for their journey, warning them that
their unbelief will cause them to be damned, and that they must be baptised,
too.
One more comment: the book of Acts tells me that the mention of signs
following in verse 20 was not limited only to the eleven. The signs
accompanied all those who believed, the eleven, plus others who believed
their preaching. The book of Acts is filled with examples of such. The
eleven were not the exclusive ones who experienced these signs. This is a
matter of Biblical fact, and any revelation you have to the contrary is
false because it would contradict the Biblical record.
No contradiction in my understanding, Dave.
I never said the signs were limited to the eleven...you imply I say that. I
am saying that in v16-20, Jesus is only SPEAKING to the eleven about
themselves, so at this point is speaking of signs that will accompany the
eleven as they go out.
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Who decides
Well, David, in the short of it, if I have to beleive the Holy Spirit, or
you, I choose the Holy Spirit.
This whole address is to the eleven...the signs are to the eleven, not
every
creature. This is confirmed in v20: "And they went forth, and preached
every
where, the Lord working with
them, and confirming the word with signs following." "They" here also
refers
to the eleven, the same "they" who went forth.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
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