Re: [TruthTalk] apostles and prophets

[Dave]

Not what I said at all.  I spoke of additional scripture.  No need for more if it was right to start with. DAVEH:   You are losing me, JD.........are you now saying the heavens are open to further revelation?  I'm not trying to put words in your mouth....just trying to find out what you believe about the possibility of current revelations from God to his prophets for the benefit of all his people.  Do you believe the heavens are open, or closed?     To continue beyond that point, even if your theory is correct (No need for more if it was right to start with), couldn't there still be a need for continued revelation to clarify the parts of the Bible that are being misinterpreted?  Our (LDS) perspective is that it was correctly revealed in times past, but then corrupted and the priesthood authority was lost.  Hence, the need for a restoration as is inferred by Paul...... [Acts 3:19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; [20] And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: [21] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Mormons are restoring a church that does not exist in First Church scripture or history !!! DAVEH:  I think you vastly do not understand the nature of the LDS restoration, Bishop.  What is it that you think we restored that was not existent in the Primitive Church? And we do know what the First Church was designed to be  --  because of these scriptures.  Even Mormons have to agree with this. DAVEH:   I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, JD. leave off the Mormon rhetoric  "Protestants." Several of us have objected to the use of this word..  I do also. & nbsp;I am not a Protestant........just a Christian.  So take me out of that little box and think that you are talking to someone who is not defending a particular liturgy or denominational history. DAVEH:  That's my interest in being in TT, John.  I really don't have a lot of interest in knowing how the fringe elements of Christianity think.  It is the Protestant element that has piqued my curiosity.  If that bothers you....I will understand why you don't continue discussing Protestantism with me. If you are RESTORING the First Chruch,  then I would expect the Mormon church to be the same as the First Church. DAVEH:   What you are apparently missing on this is the priesthood authority, John.  It is the restoration of the PA that we believe is the key element of the restoration. I am asking you to speculate  -  as you did with your questions about A & E DAVEH:  OK Bishop......this is your original question....... if we dug up some document that made it clear the Mormon church was no longer in the good graces of God.  How would you respond? DAVEH:  For anti-Mormons to dig up documents discrediting the LDS Church is hardly a unique event, nor one that would particularly influence me.  I've found their good judgment is exceeded by the influence of their biases, and I rarely concern myself by what they dig up.  IF on the other hand, God were to reveal to me that the LDS Church is no longer in his good graces, then I would defer to his will. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jd in blood red   He actually believes in the very same scriptures the rest of do. DAVEH:  As I understand DavidM, he believes prophets exist today.   Is that the way you believe as well, Bishop?     From your posts, I was under the impression that you believe the heavens are closed, and there is no need for prophets today.  Am I reading you wrong on this?   Not what I said at all.  I spoke of additional scripture.  No need for more if it was right to start with. He didn't get it right the first time. DAVEH:   How do you read that in LDS theology?  We certainly don't feel nor believe that way.  We believe he revealed the Word of God to the Primitive Church, but do to the doctrines of men, and the grievous wolves, there came to be a famine of the Word of God.  Which is one of the reasons why the Church needed restoring.   Yes, I understand this. But, in practice, you do not believe what you just wrote (above).        The First Scriptures belong to the pre-apostate era.  Your scriptures are very different from those.   And we do know what the First Church was designed to be  --  because of these scriptures.  Even Mormons have to agree with this.   Y our church is not really similar to the preApostate churc h.   That is why I said that God , according to Mormon doctrine, must have got it wrong.   ....   because your church is not similar to anything we have in preApostate documents including the early church historians.  Mormons are restoring a church that does not exist in First Church scripture or history !!!  the Mormon Church is so very different from the first and pre-apostate church found in the First and PreApostate Scriptures. DAVEH:  I'm not quite sure why you see it that way, John.  From our perspective, Protestantism seems to be so very different from the first and pre-apostate church.  What is it that bothers you about Mormonism being so very different?    Do us both a favor, for the sake of this discussion, and leave off the Mormon rhetoric  "Protestants."  Several of us have objected to the use of this word..  I do also. & nbsp;I am not a Protestant........just a Christian.  So take me out of that little box and think that you are talking to someone who is not defending a particular liturgy or denominational history.   Now, why am I bothered by the notion that the Mormon church is is so very different?   Honestly, DH, I do not understand why this is not obvious !!  If you are RESTORING the First Chruch,  then I would expect the Mormon church to be the same as the First Church.   That obviously is not the case.  So, the very reason for the existence of your church is at odds with your own stated purpose.    J Smith RESTORED NOTHING.                                                                              & nbsp;        &nbs p;                  you  have apostrate trouble DAVEH:    LOL........Good one, JD!   :-D                       :-) if we dug up some document that made it clear the Mormon church was no longer in the good graces of God.  How would you respond? DAVEH:   That would be hard to do for somebody who doesn't believe God continues to reveal things.  What other document could possibly be as authoritative as one from God?    I am asking you to speculate  -  as you did with your questions about A & E.&nbs p;                                                                                                                            upon what authority would you reject such a document? DAVEH:  Isn't there only one authority that is absolutely trustworthy....God's revealed word.  As I r ead the Bible, I cannot see the same conflict between it and LDS theology that you see.  But...that is understandable, since you are unwilling to accept that God may have revealed things that are not included in the Bible. Therefore, it seems the position you have to take is that God does not reveal his will to Prophets in a post Biblical era.  Am I correct in concluding you believe such?  Are you going to answer my question or settle for making absevations about my beliefs?   You are correct   ---------   now, please answer my question.   jd -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.