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----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/3/2006 11:12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness
(jd 2 cd)
cd: Yes-that is why God will hold these sins
to their accountably.To think otherwise would make the God we know a
mean Spirit who punishes his creation for doing something that they could
not help
"Now all things are of God, who has
reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry
of reconciliation; that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the
world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has
committed to us the word of reconciliation." -- 2Corinthians
5.18-19
cd: Yes he removed transgressions from those whom came to
receive Christ
Well, Dean, I would argue that that is not
what the passage states.
but what about those who return to sin or those who reject
Christ-are you saying they are accountable for doing something they cannot
help but to do?
No, I am not. I am saying that the entire
world enters life reconciled to God in Christ. That is a fait accompli.
There is no "getting saved" about it. They are saved, and this a mighty work
of God in Christ. Those who mature to embody this truth by believing in
Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, whereupon their
salvation is sealed, its surety resting in a guarantee from God
himself.
BUT those who knew God (see Rom 1.21) but
reject Christ will eventually be lost, lest they repent of that
denial; for these are those who have trampled underfoot the Son of God and
insulted the Spirit of Grace, having denied the Lord who redeemed
them.
cd: Bill tell me how do you receive the below verse to mean?
It is in English and the words are connected to meaning behind the
words-what do you think those connections illustrate?
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have
known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy
commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to
the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow
that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
If you will trace the context of this
passage, you will discover that it begins in chapter 2 verse 1.
The "them" of 21 and 22 are thus the "false teachers" of 2.1, who
have denied the Lord who bought them.
NKJ 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also
false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers
among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying
the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift
destruction. ... 12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught
and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, ... 17
These are wells without water, ... 19 While they promise them liberty,
they themselves are slaves of corruption; ... 21 For it would have been
better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having
known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22
But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns
to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the
mire."
David Miller (himself a Wesleyan in good standing)
and I had this discussion a few months back, and we both concluded
that the "false teachers" of Peter's address were not and had never
been true Christians (i.e., believers who had once come to a genuine
faith but had later lost their salvation); rather, they were men who
basically new enough of the gospel to incorporate some of its language,
thus sounding credible, but had never been converted by its truth; hence
their intentions from the outset were not to follow Christ but to lead
people astray. You are welcome to disagree if you like, but rather than
rewrite that book from scratch, I would like to first direct you to the
archives; perhaps after reading our discussion and tracking its dynamics,
you will have a change of mind. Just search for "denying the Lord
who bought (or perhaps redeemed) them." This should eventually
get you into that thread.
Thanks, bro.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:47
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Rightousness
(jd 2 cd)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/3/2006 8:17:00 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
IFF even one (1) was "able to keep God's
commandments before Christ went up to heaven and sent the Holy Ghost to
help us in this area (Acts)" then, might we rightly assume that EVERYONE
WAS ABLE?
cd: Yes-that is why God will hold these
sins to their accountably.To think otherwise would make the God we
know a mean Spirit who punishes his creation for doing something
that they could not help but to do-and He would then not be God.At least
not a God I would want to serve.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: February 03, 2006
08:10
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Rightousness (jd 2 cd)
I may have misread you, Dean, but you seem
to say above that John the Baptist's "parents were post
ascension." The "ascension" took place after the resurrection of
Jesus, when he left this earth to sit at his Father's right
hand. Zacharias and Elizabeth were both quite old when JB was
born and had probably even died prior to the ascension. I
am a little confused as to what you mean when you write that
they were post-ascension. Elsewhere you state that "Christ has a
flesh body and ate fish even after the accention." I assume you
meant to say "ascension" here and if so, I was not aware of any
Scripture which speaks of Jesus eating
fish since having left to be with his
Father. Could you please try to help me better understand
what you're saying.
-------------------------
cd: Respectfully Bill -I am speaking of post-ascension as
a way of pointing out that Zac. and Elizabeth were able to keep
God's commandments before Christ went up to heaven and sent the
Holy Ghost to help us in this area (Acts 2)-so we have no excuse
for not doing so.This is my attempt to strengthen the
brethren.
-------------------------
By the way, do you (and
Judy) believe that JB's parents were born of "sinful
flesh"?
-----------------------------
cd: Yes I do Bill and I addressed
this in another post to John today.
I evidently missed
that one, Dean. Sorry about that. I was wondering if you
also consider Zacharius and Elizabeth to have been been
righteous and blameless before God.
---------------------------
cd: Yes I do Bill- but their born
into sin from the flesh saw need for their
salvation.
----------------------------
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