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----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/5/2006 5:51:44 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
cd: You are using the work "seal" wrong Bill. ...
In all respect, Dean, yours is an exercise in futility with me. I grew up believing that Christians could lose their salvation; in fact, I grew up believing that I had lost mine on many occasions, and for many years I believed my dad had gone to hell because of "sins" he was still committing when he passed (for instance, he still liked to have a beer every now and then, and he still enjoyed playing cards to pass the time). Well, I have since discovered the amazing grace of God in Jesus Christ, and I love him -- and, quite frankly, it'll be a cold day in HELL before I'll go back to anybody's performance-based, DAISY approach to the Gospel. It just ain't gonna happen. And so, if you want to spell it out for the "benefit" of others, that is your prerogative; but please don't do it on my account, because I won't be listening. La-la-La-la-La-La-
cd: Bill I respect your right to not listen and will withdraw in this private forum-But I will leave you with one thing. I also know what it is like to live with the constant fear of causing harm to my relationship with God-I never want to go back to that-that is why many people are in mental hospitals.But at some point in my misery God gave me a revelation and it stemmed from the passage to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". I took those thing you mentioned in the above and compared them to commandments and found none of them were sin-unless taken into excess.That is my point for promoting a clear understanding of the commandments as to break one can be forgiven if the remorse is there and the repentance-then one goes on with life trusting in Christ to mediate that wrong.The wonderful part is that he can mediate anything a Christian would do:-) But to be evil and to continue on in sinning against God and others is a different matter entirly.Believing in keeping God's co
mmandments with fear has not bounded me to suffering but has instead freed me to a better life and helped me to relax-but also to watch myself. This is not only brought joy to my life but also brought a closer relationship with God.
I have found to all those things I had been taught wasn't sin as I took the time to study what the commandments were to and understand that some things take time to grow into.I am sorry to hear that you believe you father went to hell over such things. To help clear up any misunderstand I will leave you with 2 verses to consider that should cause freedom in your life.
cd:Notice in the below that these commandment breakers not only taught wrong but lived wrong and still made it to heaven.Why -I think because they lived in ignorance of what the specific commandment was-or that they hadn't been given a clear indication of what the commandment included.For me to believe one went to hell is to judge without complete understanding for there is more there then what it would seem to be-I believe you did this with your father.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
cd:Bill this below is the joy and freedom I am speaking about-Godly fear without being grieved.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
cd: I would ask you to do this Bill. Do you have a words search for the bible? If so- type in commandments and look how many times they are mentioned in the new testiment.Again none of us know the entire bible so we learn from each other-there are many thing you have written about that I want to question you about to learn from you-but as we are in this issue- I hesitate to bring up a new topic. We learn from each other Bill and there is no shame of not knowing-the shame is to reject the truth.
Respectfully,
Thank you for the respect and for this as I understand you better-may God bless you Bill.You were in my prayers last night and will be there tonight.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/5/2006 12:51:03 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Bill do you see any fault in the below?
Dean, here is a quotation from that passage: "If they (the frames and feelings) are not in us, it is a sure sign that though the wilderness became a pool, the pool is become a wilderness again."
I can agree that a believer can apostate to the point that God will take him home, so to speak, so as to prevent him from irreparable destruction. But I am not convinced that a true believer can lose his or her salvation, once having received the guarantee and seal of the Holy Spirit; for that is no longer the Christian going back on his word; it is God.
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cd: You are using the work "seal" wrong Bill. God uses the seal of the Holy Ghost to mark his property.The quarantee is that if we walk in Holiness we will be accepted by God.Why test something that has already been guaranteed for service and heaven?We Christians are tested.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Whereby ye are sealed - The Holy Spirit in the soul of a believer is Gods seal, set on his heart to testify that he is Gods property, and that he should be wholly employed in Gods service. It is very likely that the apostle had in view the words of the prophet, Isa_63:10 : But they rebelled, and Vexed his Holy Spirit; therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and fought against them. The psalmist refers to the same fact in nearly the same words, Psa_78:40 : How oft did they Provoke him in the wilderness, and Grieve him in the desert! Let every man, therefore, take heed that he grieve not the Spirit of God, lest God turn to be his enemy, and fight against him.
Webster Dictionary: Seal
6. To mark with a stamp, as an evidence of standard exactness, legal size, or merchantable quality. By our laws, weights and measures are to be sealed by an officer appointe and sworn for that purpose; and lether is to be sealed by a like officer, as evidence that it has been inspected and found to be of good quality.
7. To keep secret.
Shut up the words, and seal the book. Dan 11. Isa 8.
8. To mark as ones property, and secure from danger.
9. To close; to fulfill; to complete; with up.
10. To imprint on the ; as, to seal instruction.
11. To inclose; to hide; to conceal.
12. To confine; to restrain.
cd: Consider the parable of the sower:He heard the word of Christ, and recieved Christ-endured for a while-falls away when it got tough.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/3/2006 10:55:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
It may be helpful to distinguish between duality and dualism.
cd; Yeah what he said:-)
I'll defer to John's comments for now, Dean, as his are insightful and I do not wish to devote the time to the topic which would be needed to draw out the distinctions. Suffice it to say that (1) I see two distinct natures at work in the person of Christ prior to his death and resurrection: a human nature, replete with all the limitations commensurate with fallen humanity; and a Divine nature, which is fully God. (2) I also see two distinct natures at work in his person after the resurrection: the same Divine nature as before, along with a new, glorified human nature. (3) As it pertains to us as Christians, I see two distinct natures at work in our members: an old fallen nature which refuses to stay down (if you will allow some latitude with this language); and a new nature which is that of the resurrected Christ, as ministered to us by the Holy Spirit. Moreover, (4) I believe that the old nature will be erased in our resurrection, never again to rear its ugly h
ead; that will leave us with but one nature, the same nature which we received from Christ in the new birth.
Dean, I hope this makes sense and helps you to understand how I can find agreement with David on the topic of dualism, without desiring to delve into a detailed discussion on its distinctions in a separate thread.
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cd: Bill I can agree with yours-and Johns- presentation and of dualism in the brethren for a time. But I also feel one must allow for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to stronger levels of Holiness that will press the old man into total subjection for this is pleasing to God. Love would be the domination word for this as it is the domination emotion for us Christians. With love I will not get angry for being struck -with love I will not lust for the scantly dressed women my heart will pull back from that sin-love is the only way to fulfill the law of loving my neighbor as myself.Love will root out all sin in the flesh.As we grow in sanctification we are growing in love to where even dualism is no longer a factor for me as my union is with the father, Son ,and the Holy Ghost.Bill do you see any fault in the below?
J. Wesley wrote:
2Pe 3:18 - But grow in grace - That is, in every Christian temper. There may be, for a time, grace without growth; as there may be natural life without growth. But such sickly life, of soul or body, will end in death, and every day draw nigher to it. Health is the means of both natural and spiritual growth. If the remaining evil of our fallen nature be not daily mortified, it will, like an evil humour in the body, destroy the whole man. But "if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body," (only so far as we do this,) "ye shall live" the life of faith, holiness, happiness. The end and design of grace being purchased and bestowed on us, is to destroy the image of the earthy, and restore us to that of the heavenly. And so far as it does this, it truly profits us; and also makes way for more of the heavenly gift, that we may at last be filled with all the fulness of God. The strength and well - being of a Christian depend on what his soul feeds on, as the heal
th of the body depends on whatever we make our daily food. If we feed on what is according to our nature, we grow; if not, we pine away and die. The soul is of the nature of God, and nothing but what is according to his holiness can agree with it. Sin, of every kind, starves the soul, and makes it consume away. Let us not try to invert the order of God in his new creation: we shall only deceive ourselves. It is easy to forsake the will of God, and follow our own; but this will bring leanness into the soul. It is easy to satisfy ourselves without being possessed of the holiness and happiness of the gospel. It is easy to call these frames and feelings, and then to oppose faith to one and Christ to the other. Frames (allowing the _expression_) are no other than heavenly tempers, "the mind that was in Christ." Feelings are the divine consolations of the Holy Ghost shed abroad in the heart of him that truly believes. And wherever faith is, and wherever Christ
is, there are these blessed frames and feelings. If they are not in us, it is a sure sign that though the wilderness became a pool, the pool is become a wilderness again. And in the knowledge of Christ - That is, in faith, the root of all. To him be the glory to the day of eternity - An _expression_ naturally flowing from that sense which the apostle had felt in his soul throughout this whole chapter. Eternity is a day without night, without interruption, without end.
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