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I took those thing you mentioned in the
above and compared them to commandments and found none of them were sin-unless
taken into excess.
That's the point, Dean. As soon as
you give people the power to take away salvation, they start making up ways of
doing it.
Thank you for your concern. I am
open to just about anything, but over the years certain excursions have proven
to be less fruitful than others. I used to think this debate -- Calvinism v
Arminianism, with its different forms -- was the most important in-house debate
for Christians. I pursued it with gusto -- from both sides :>) I can see now
how little fruit it beared. I don't want to squander more friendships on
secondary issues.
I think Jesus Christ and getting to
know him is where we need to spend our time.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 4:25
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/5/2006 5:51:44 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
cd: You are using the work
"seal" wrong Bill. ...
In all respect, Dean,
yours is an exercise in futility with me. I grew up believing that
Christians could lose their salvation; in fact, I grew up believing that I had
lost mine on many occasions, and for many years I believed my dad had gone
to hell because of "sins" he was still committing when he passed (for
instance, he still liked to have a beer every now and then, and he still
enjoyed playing cards to pass the time). Well, I have since discovered
the amazing grace of God in Jesus Christ, and I love him -- and, quite
frankly, it'll be a cold day in HELL before I'll go back to anybody's
performance-based, DAISY approach to the Gospel. It just ain't gonna
happen. And so, if you want to spell it out for the "benefit" of
others, that is your prerogative; but please don't do it on my account,
because I won't be listening. La-la-La-la-La-La-
cd: Bill I respect your right to not
listen and will withdraw in this private forum-But I will leave you with one
thing. I also know what it is like to live with the constant fear of
causing harm to my relationship with God-I never want to go back to
that-that is why many people are in mental hospitals.But at some point in my
misery God gave me a revelation and it stemmed from the passage to "work out
your own salvation with fear and trembling". I took those thing you
mentioned in the above and compared them to commandments and found none of
them were sin-unless taken into excess.That is my point for promoting a
clear understanding of the commandments as to break one can be forgiven if
the remorse is there and the repentance-then one goes on with life trusting
in Christ to mediate that wrong.The wonderful part is that he can mediate
anything a Christian would do:-) But to be evil and to continue on in
sinning against God and others is a different matter entirly.Believing in
keeping God's co mmandments with fear has not bounded me to suffering but
has instead freed me to a better life and helped me to relax-but also to
watch myself. This is not only brought joy to my life but also brought a
closer relationship with God.
I have found to all those things
I had been taught wasn't sin as I took the time to study what the
commandments were to and understand that some things take time to grow
into.I am sorry to hear that you believe you father went to hell over such
things. To help clear up any misunderstand I will leave you with 2 verses to
consider that should cause freedom in your life.
cd:Notice in the below that these
commandment breakers not only taught wrong but lived wrong and still made it
to heaven.Why -I think because they lived in ignorance of what the specific
commandment was-or that they hadn't been given a clear indication of what
the commandment included.For me to believe one went to hell is to judge
without complete understanding for there is more there then what it would
seem to be-I believe you did this with your father.
Mat 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of
these least commandments, and shall teach men
so, he shall
be called the least in the
kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach
them, the same
shall be called
great in the
kingdom of heaven.
cd:Bill this below is the joy and freedom I am
speaking about-Godly fear without being grieved.
1Jo 5:3 For this
is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
cd: I would ask you to do this Bill. Do you have a
words search for the bible? If so- type in commandments and look how many
times they are mentioned in the new testiment.Again none of us know the
entire bible so we learn from each other-there are many thing you have
written about that I want to question you about to learn from you-but as we
are in this issue- I hesitate to bring up a new topic. We learn from each
other Bill and there is no shame of not knowing-the shame is to reject the
truth.
Respectfully,
Thank you for the respect and for this as I
understand you better-may God bless you Bill.You were in my prayers last
night and will be there tonight.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/5/2006 12:51:03 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Bill do you see any fault in the
below?
Dean, here is a
quotation from that passage: "If they (the frames and
feelings) are not in us, it is a sure sign that though the
wilderness became a pool, the pool is become a wilderness again."
I can agree that a
believer can apostate to the point that God will take him home, so to
speak, so as to prevent him from irreparable destruction. But I am not
convinced that a true believer can lose his or her salvation, once
having received the guarantee and seal of the Holy Spirit;
for that is no longer the Christian going back on his word; it is
God.
----------------------------------------------
cd: You are using the work
"seal" wrong Bill. God uses the seal of the Holy Ghost to mark
his property.The quarantee is that if we walk in Holiness we will
be accepted by God.Why test something that has already been guaranteed
for service and heaven?We Christians are tested.
Eph 4:30 And grieve
not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of
redemption.
Whereby ye are sealed - The Holy Spirit in the soul
of a believer is Gods seal, set on his heart to testify that he is
Gods property, and that he should be wholly employed in Gods
service. It is very likely that the apostle had in view the words of the
prophet, Isa_63:10 : But they rebelled, and Vexed his Holy Spirit; therefore he was
turned to be their enemy, and fought against them. The psalmist refers
to the same fact in nearly the same words, Psa_78:40 : How oft did they Provoke him
in the wilderness, and Grieve him in the desert! Let every man,
therefore, take heed that he grieve not the Spirit of God, lest God turn
to be his enemy, and fight against him.
Webster Dictionary: Seal
6. To mark with a stamp, as an evidence of standard exactness, legal
size, or merchantable quality. By our laws, weights and measures are to
be sealed by an officer appointe and sworn for that purpose; and
lether is to be sealed by a like officer, as evidence that it has
been inspected and found to be of good quality.
7. To keep secret.
Shut up the words, and seal
the book. Dan 11. Isa 8.
8. To mark as ones property, and secure from danger.
9. To close; to fulfill; to complete; with up.
10. To imprint on the ; as, to seal instruction.
11. To inclose; to hide; to conceal.
12. To confine; to restrain.
cd: Consider the parable of the sower:He heard the word of Christ,
and recieved Christ-endured for a while-falls away when it got
tough.
Mat 13:20 But he that
received the seed into stony
places, the
same is he that
heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by
and by he is offended.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006
6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 2/3/2006 10:55:41 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
It may be helpful to
distinguish between duality and dualism.
cd; Yeah what he
said:-)
I'll defer to
John's comments for now, Dean, as his are insightful and I do
not wish to devote the time to the topic which would be needed
to draw out the distinctions. Suffice it to say that (1) I see
two distinct natures at work in the person of Christ prior to his
death and resurrection: a human nature, replete with all the
limitations commensurate with fallen humanity; and a Divine nature,
which is fully God. (2) I also see two distinct natures at work in
his person after the resurrection: the same Divine nature as
before, along with a new, glorified human nature. (3) As it pertains
to us as Christians, I see two distinct natures at work in our
members: an old fallen nature which refuses to stay down (if you
will allow some latitude with this language); and a new nature which
is that of the resurrected Christ, as ministered to us by the Holy
Spirit. Moreover, (4) I believe that the old nature will be
erased in our resurrection, never again to rear its ugly h
ead; that will leave us with but one nature, the same
nature which we received from Christ in the new
birth.
Dean, I hope this
makes sense and helps you to understand how I can find
agreement with David on the topic of dualism, without desiring to
delve into a detailed discussion on its distinctions in a separate
thread.
-------------------------------
cd: Bill I can agree with yours-and
Johns- presentation and of dualism in the brethren for a time.
But I also feel one must allow for the guidance of the Holy Spirit
to stronger levels of Holiness that will press the old man into
total subjection for this is pleasing to God. Love would be the
domination word for this as it is the domination emotion for us
Christians. With love I will not get angry for being struck -with
love I will not lust for the scantly dressed women my heart will
pull back from that sin-love is the only way to fulfill the law of
loving my neighbor as myself.Love will root out all sin in the
flesh.As we grow in sanctification we are growing in love to where
even dualism is no longer a factor for me as my union is with the
father, Son ,and the Holy Ghost.Bill do you see any fault in the
below?
J. Wesley wrote:
2Pe 3:18 - But grow in grace - That is, in
every Christian temper. There may be, for a time, grace without
growth; as there may be natural life without growth. But such sickly
life, of soul or body, will end in death, and every day draw nigher
to it. Health is the means of both natural and spiritual growth. If
the remaining evil of our fallen nature be not daily mortified, it
will, like an evil humour in the body, destroy the whole man. But
"if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body," (only
so far as we do this,) "ye shall live" the life of faith, holiness,
happiness. The end and design of grace being purchased and bestowed
on us, is to destroy the image of the earthy, and restore us to that
of the heavenly. And so far as it does this, it truly profits us;
and also makes way for more
of the heavenly gift, that we may at last be filled with all the
fulness of God. The strength and well - being of a Christian depend
on what his soul feeds on, as the heal th of the body depends on
whatever we make our daily food. If we feed on what is according to
our nature, we grow; if not, we pine away and die. The soul is of
the nature of God, and nothing but what is according to his holiness
can agree with it. Sin, of
every kind, starves the soul, and makes it consume away. Let us not
try to invert the order of God in his new creation: we shall only
deceive ourselves. It is easy to forsake the will of God, and follow
our own; but this will bring leanness into the soul. It is easy to
satisfy ourselves without being possessed of the holiness and
happiness of the gospel. It is easy to call these frames and
feelings, and then to oppose faith to one and Christ to the other.
Frames (allowing the _expression_) are no other than heavenly tempers, "the mind
that was in Christ." Feelings are the divine consolations of the
Holy Ghost shed abroad in the heart of him that truly believes. And
wherever faith is, and wherever Christ is, there are these blessed
frames and feelings. If they are not in us, it is a sure sign that
though the wilderness became a pool, the pool is become a wilderness
again. And in the knowledge of Christ - That is, in faith, the root
of all. To him be the glory to the day of eternity - An _expression_
naturally flowing from that sense which the apostle had felt in his
soul throughout this whole chapter. Eternity is a day without night,
without interruption, without
end.
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