John, I have read your post carefully, and while many times I do miss your
intended meaning, I don't think this is one of those times. You have not
said anything new in this post that I did not understand from your previous
posts. Perhaps you are not grasping my point. Your thought was certainly not complicated. I agreed with your conclusion. Sorry that my answer was redundant. The redundancy you have noted is only the inability of me to give you a different answer from what I have been saying. I do believe I am at the heart of the issue.
Your previous point included the idea that because you have identified the
verb in 1 John as present indicative active, it must refer to a time of
action that is continuous and linear rather than at one point in time
(punctiliar, which is the common usage of the aorist tense). Greek studies
often Actually, ALL FI
RST YEAR GREEK STUDIES do this make a big point of how tenses in Greek convey type of action rather
than time because in English the tenses we use tend to be more about time
than type of action. This is a difficult concept the difference between time and action, or between puntiliar and linear is not difficult ! I have no idea why you say this. If it were so difficult - it would be in advanced Greek studies and I do not recall such being the case. for beginning students to
understand, so it is hammered pretty hard in beginning classes. Classes, of course, you never took. Correct? The problem
is that sometimes there has been too much emphasis upon it.
In past posts, you have argued that you know something about 1 John 1:7
because of your knowledge of Greek. You have
relied heavily upon your
ability to identify the tense and mood of the verb to make your case that
the passage can only be understood as linear action with no end in sight.
The idea is that an ending of ing in English better conveys the meaning of 1
John 1:7, even though there is no other translator who has translated the
passage this way. actually, I found a translation that gave the "ing" translation. but I did not buy it and have lost track of the author. But no matter -- you seem to be saying (present indicative active) that because the translations "are not including " (present time activity that goes on forever) the "ing" ending," the claims of John Smithson are false !! Here are some sources for the translation of "ing" in regard to present active ----
1. Rogers and Rogers, Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The Greek New Testament, p 592, where they everywhere use the translative expressions " walking ........... confessing" with this explanation:
" Walking in the light is the conscious and sustained endeavor to live a life in conformity w. the revelation of God WHO IS THE LIGHT (my emphasis) . Just before this, they say "the cond. cls. in vv7 and 9 introduce the hypothesis of pres. and continuous Christian life -- on the supposition that we are walking or confessing."
Supporting authority: Johannine Grammar, Edwin Abbot, p372 ----- Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basic, p. 663 ------Ray Summers, Essentials of New Testament Greek, p. 11 ------ William Mounce, Basics of Bilbical Greek Grammar, p. 133 ------- and again on page 353
All of the above contain actual citations using "ing" to convey the idea of present time verbs.
This is not a debateable issue. Plain and simple. You are a self taught Greek student. fine and good. Stick to the books and you will be fine.
Now, in this post, after reconsidering the issue for two hours, you argue
that context tells you that the ing ending is warranted. I can handle that
argument just fine. That is a possibility, it is a fact, not a possibility.
but now we shift to discuss
context rather than the fact that the word in Greek is present indicative
active. Furthermore, context can be examined better in English, so the rest
of those on TruthTalk who do not know Greek can consider the passage on an
equal footing with you. Absolutely Let's talk about the context in English and
consider whether the author means to convey "cleansing" in a linear way, or
"cleanses" in the sense of taking a bath, which common sense tells us that
we will get out of the bath tub at some point and not just sit in that tub
forever because we are constantly getting dirty while sitting in the bath
tub.
I'm not sure I completely disagree with your ulitmate point. There is a
sense in which I need to be cleansed continually by the blood of Jesus
Christ because of this body of flesh that I live in. I just disagree with
your thinking that the matter is
settled because of the present indicative
active construction of the Greek. David, I have to smile just a bit, here. You see my point regarding present time. And you understand my point regarding the need for continual cleasing. Is this not an admission that my point has been made to you - and all I have used in the discussion is an arugment from the use of verb tense? I hope you understand better my point.
If you do understand my point, you might better be able to hear the
perspective of others like Judy or Dean instead of laughing at them because
of their ignorance of Greek. Now why did you go and say this? If I laugh at anybody -- and who said I did other than yourself [ad hom if there is such a thing, or , if you prefer, a flat out lie] I would laugh at you. Look how much time you have taken on two or three occasio
ns over the past year to finally admit that you kinda see all the points that I have been trying to make. In addition, you disagree on one of the more basic of Greek lingistic rules !!! Doesn't make you look good.
As far as learning from Judy Taylor -- I consider her to be so involved in error as to be actually dangerous to those who might give her attention. Dean? It could happen when he is not doing his immatation of tough guy street preacher. You -- well, you have made a few points that I have added to my "comments worth keeping" file.
Your concept of interpretive plurality is a good one. Please apply it to
the present situation, attempting to understand how there may be aspects to
how others read 1 John 1:7 that might enhance your own understanding, and
how your understanding might actually fit in with their piece of the puzzle
and thereby enhance their understanding without them necessarily discarding
everything they know about the passage. Sounds like good advice !!
David Miller.
