Jon
I will not answer all the points you so bluntly made, and yes as I said I
am prepared to become number 33, I am examining how I might best
contribute to the project, to the extent, as I mentioned, that I am
writing as "stupid" doc on how to get Turbine running on Windoze and
Apache/JServ running on windoze.
Once completed, anyone is free to flame me and complain about how I did
it.
The one point I will make, is that yes the install docs have been made as
simple as YOU can, but I think often the docs are written by hard core
programmers who with the best of intentions, have lost touch with how it
is for inexperienced newbies trying to understand this stuff. For instance
the first time I installed plain old Apache .9 on Linux I had never used
Linux b4 in my life!
Anyway, Jon, I do appreciate everything you do, and in can empathise with
you when you see people as complaining and being unappreciative. I am in
now way complaining, but rather trying to be constructive and make a
contribution here.
Well that's my 40c worth .. add GST where applicable.
Precious is as precious does.
Chris
On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:29:01 -0700, Jon Stevens wrote:
>on 7/11/2000 8:44 AM, "Brevsville Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>> Well yes , there is too much and also not enough. As an IT professional
>> for some 13 years.. I find the reality is that most users never open books
>> or read docs. So apache (or whoever) can scold them all day .. all to no
>> avail, or try to bring them into the fold, by giving them JUST what they
>> need. I mean the JServ install is very simple, but, it has so much in it
>> for the basic user, that I lost count of how many people missed the point
>> "ONLY JSDK2.0" (are you listening jon SS?).
>
>People miss that, but it is in bold in about 10 different places. I'm not
>really sure how to make that more clear. If you have suggestions on how to
>make people read the documentation, please tell me how. Again, be part of
>the solution, not part of the problem.
>
>> So rather to have a simple ABC
>> docs and assume it all works, then have an index or errors and let those
>> in trouble follow the links of errors if they encounter those errors. At
>> present when I look at tubine, I have all these jars .. do I need them?
>> What does each do?
>
>There is a README file in the lib directory that documents what each of them
>is. That is the answer to your question. No matter how hard I try, I can't
>force you to see that. What else can I do?
>
>> Anyway my point is that the products are good, but forget that many users
>> these days have limited experience and need to be taken by the hand ABC
>> style. IF not they just leave and use something else...
>
>...and have the same sorts of problems, just with another product.
>
>Idiots will always remain idiots until they learn to read the documentation
>so that they can grow beyond being idiots. It is that simple.
>
>Think of it this way:
>
>Imagine that you are in school teaching a course on geometry. Are you
>expecting the students to read a simple HOWTO that teaches geometry or are
>you expecting the students to study the textbook?
>
>Do you think that the students would get as good of an education with a
>HOWTO or a textbook?
>
>This stuff isn't rocket science, but it does take time and energy to learn.
>You are trying to find the quick way out and I'm sorry, it just does not
>exist and will never exist. You still need to learn how to do the math.
>
>> Well my point is to start a discussion, specifically to Turbine but more
>> generally to apache software, that I think there is a need or an
>> oppurtunity to bring less experiences users into the Apache fold, by
>> prividing "stupid" documents that just tell a users what to do and omit
>> why they are doing it. Not to teach them how to configure Turbine, but
>> rather to get them using it. Then once at this point, they can follow the
>> more extensive docs/faqs/archives, to customise their systems.
>
>Ok, I have been in this Apache/OSS game for about 6 years now which is much
>longer than most people. At this point, I have pretty much seen everything.
>
>Bluntly, no matter how many "stupid" documents get written, people will
>still not bother to read them and there will always be people who are so
>stupid they won't even understand the stupid documents. It is a losing
>battle.
>
>> Well anyway .. like I said, I am not bitching, just airing my views and
>> thinking on how I might contribute to the community effort. Thanx for
>> your comments
>
>Bluntly, your "views" actually are not appreciated because they really don't
>help anything. Yes, they are "bitching" because there is nothing qualitative
>or quantitative about your "views".
>
>Thank you very much, but I'm well aware that there are people out there who
>can't read the documentation and need more handholding than others. What you
>are "viewing" to us really isn't anything new or anything that we don't
>already know.
>
>Now, let me tell you what is appreciated (it is really simple): your
>detailed suggestions for actually fixing things as well as your diff's and
>patches for fixing things.
>
>There are now 32 people who have contributed to this project, I challenge
>you to become number 33.
>
>Telling people like me to do all this work making everyone else's life
>easier is also totally uncool. This is a 100% volunteer collaborative effort
>and we are already doing the best we can.
>
>I'm already giving up a good portion of my life (in case you missed it, I
>work nearly 15 hours a day 6-7 days a week) to give away 100% of what I do
>for free in order to hopefully make a few people's lives easier. If you
>don't like it, help make it better, but certainly don't complain about it.
>That is beyond rude and inconsiderate.
>
>I will keep repeating this until it gets into everyone's head:
>
>Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
>
>:-)
>
>thanks,
>
>-jon
>
>
>
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