Yes, unfortunately, that can and will happen BUT not always.  Why did they 
leave and what if anything could be done to have kept them?  Sometimes people 
leave companies for better pay and benefits, sometimes they have life changes 
that require it, sometimes it is because the company is closing, or converting 
away, or just plain conflict between management and programmers.  The more 
people are reluctant to bring on newbies and work with them, the less people we 
have coming into our world.  It really boils down to survival of Multivalue, 
the harder it is to get people as there are less people available, the more 
likely companies will start looking to move away.

I was trained at my first job after working 2 years as a computer operator, 
then stayed with that company 8 more years as a programmer.
2nd programming job 18 months contracting.
3rd programming job 7 years.
Current programming 5 years.



-----Original Message-----
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 9:53 PM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] [OT] Interview Questions

Okay Will, I'll bite.  So what's that look like?  How can you identify someone 
looking for their "last" job, and what qualities does one need to offer?  
Clearly it's not excessive cash, flexible schedules, great equipment, wonderful 
customers, a wide variety of technologies to learn and grow, and a quiet, 
"bring-your-dog-to-work" type environment.  Yeah, there's heavy workloads, but 
that's a sign that we're doing a good job when customers are loading us down 
with opportunities, right?


On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

> If you give them their first programming job they will leave
>
> The trick is finding people to whom you are giving them their *last* 
> programming job.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin King <ke...@precisonline.com>
> To: U2 Users List <u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org>
> Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 1:15 pm
> Subject: Re: [U2] [OT] Interview Questions
>
>
> I also agree.  I'm willing to train, but what I've found is that 
> someone that is "willing" to learn doesn't necessarily mean they're 
> "able" to learn or "willing" to do what they've learned.  What 
> happened here was that a group of folks with little experience got a 
> lot of good training and then took the training elsewhere, so I'd 
> rather not start from scratch if at all possible.  We need folks to be 
> able to contribute quickly, so I don't have the time nor desire to 
> give someone their first programming job knowing that I'm only giving them 
> wings to fly.
>
> And yeah, I'm still a little bitter.  I'll get over it. :-)
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Robert Frailey <rfrai...@utahmed.com
> >wrote:
>
> > I totally agree with Brenda and Bill. Work sent Brooke and I to 
> > Epicor's Unidata and Pick classes in California, I only had Novell 
> > and Microsoft when I was hired.
> > I picked up Unix, Unidata, redback and DBMS from classes provided by
> work.
> > 19 years later, Brooke and I are self sufficient. We show up on time 
> > and put in whatever necessary to complete our tasks. We learn 
> > everything in sight.
> We
> > would be hard pressed if one or both of us got hit by a bus. I'm 
> > expected to be 24 hours a day / seven days a week and Brooke fills 
> > in when I can't. I run into very few people with our work ethic 
> > anymore.
> >
> > Robert
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda Ives" < 
> > bren...@marketamerica.com>
> > To: "'U2 Users List'" <u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org>
> > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 1:18 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [U2] [OT] Interview Questions
> >
> >
> >  How about the other end here?
> >>
> >> By other end, I mean this.  What about someone in college or out of 
> >> college with a degree other than an IT subject or if with an IT 
> >> degree
> or
> >> working on one, who has been taught by someone with over 20 years 
> >> of experience outside of college but the student/graduate has no 
> >> employment history of what has been taught them outside of college.  
> >> Plus they meet all 3 of your requirements listed below?
> >>
> >> UniVerse/UniData/D3/JBASE/**CACHE is not taught in colleges and if 
> >> we don't teach them what happens when all of us oldies are gone?
> >>
> >> Brenda
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: u2-users-bounces@listserver.**u2ug.org<
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org>[mailto:
> >> u2-users-bounces@**listserver.u2ug.org<
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org>]
> >> On Behalf Of Bill Haskett
> >> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 2:41 PM
> >> To: U2 Users List
> >> Subject: Re: [U2] [OT] Interview Questions
> >>
> >> Kevin:
> >>
> >> After actually hiring a lot of people, and firing those that needed 
> >> it, I've come to the conclusion that all employers need a person 
> >> with the following three attributes:
> >>
> >> 1)  An ability, and willingness, to be on-time,
> >> 2)  An ability, and willingness, to be presentable in all business 
> >> situations, and
> >> 3)  An ability, and willingness, to learn what they don't know 
> >> (which is always a lot!).
> >>
> >> The people coming out of college these days are mostly unemployable.
> >> Today's bachelors degree is like a 1930 8th grade education, or a 
> >> 1970 high school education.  So, no matter what any Human Services 
> >> dweeb
> says,
> >> getting someone to show up looking presentable and willing to work
> whatever
> >> it takes to learn what they don't know is gold!  These kinds of 
> >> people
> are
> >> quite trainable and, considering all software frameworks have a 
> >> short
> shelf
> >> life anyway, offer a lot of flexibility for your purposes.
> >>
> >> Just a thought.  :-)
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> >> ------------
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* ke...@precisonline.com
> >> *To:* U2 Users List <u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org>
> >> *Date:* 10/11/2013 9:56 AM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [U2] [OT] Interview Questions
> >>
> >>> Unfortunately, in one case I hired a friend.  Needless to say, it 
> >>> was one of the worst decisions I've made.  Not only lost a friend, 
> >>> but lost a lot of customer confidence by her attitude, poor 
> >>> workmanship, and unwillingness to adapt.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Robert Frailey 
> >>> <rfrai...@utahmed.com
> >>> >wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  Wow, seen a lot of that and managers trying to get friends hired 
> >>> to
> >>>> create a perfect office society.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>   quit hiring backstabbing chaff
> >>>>
> >>>>> with their own agendas.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  Robert
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin King"
> >>>> <ke...@precisonline.com>
> >>>> To: "Susan Joslyn" <sjos...@sjplus.com>; "U2 Users List" < 
> >>>> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org>
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 8:07 PM
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [U2] [OT] Interview Questions
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>   Susan, yes.  I've been very open in my interviews, and it's 
> >>>> netted
> >>>>
> >>>>> significantly regrettable results.  So this time I'm going for 
> >>>>> people who can get behind and contribute to the common cause as 
> >>>>> soon after hire as possible.  I don't have any aspirations of 
> >>>>> hiring for life, though I certainly do endeavor to have that 
> >>>>> kind of an environment for a person who wants that sort of 
> >>>>> thing.  I just need to quit hiring backstabbing chaff with their own 
> >>>>> agendas.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Susan Joslyn 
> >>>>> <sjos...@sjplus.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   Kevin,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Not that I have any real experience - at least not for what 
> >>>>>> seems like a lifetime - with hiring.  But my instinct might be 
> >>>>>> to let the applicant tell me whatever they want.  You know, 
> >>>>>> just an open ended "Tell me what you would like me to know 
> >>>>>> about your skills, your ambitions and your work ethic."
> >>>>>> Probably that's an approach you've already tried.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Susan
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From:
> >>>>>> <mailto:u2-users-bounces@**lis**tserver.u2ug.org<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org>
> >>>>>> <u2-users-**bounces@lis
> >>>>>> tserver.u2ug.org>
> >>>>>> u2-users-bounces@listserver.****u2ug.org <http://u2ug.org> 
> >>>>>> <u2-users-bounces@**listserver.
> >>>>>> u2ug.org>[
> >>>>>> <mailto:u2-users-bounces@**lis**tserver.u2ug.org<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org>
> >>>>>> <u2-users-**bounces@lis
> >>>>>> tserver.u2ug.org>
> >>>>>> mailto:u2-users-bounces@**list**server.u2ug.org<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org>
> >>>>>> <u2-users-**bounces@list
> >>>>>> server.u2ug.org>]
> >>>>>> On Behalf Of Leverett,
> >>>>>> Brendon
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, 8 October 2013 1:40 PM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To: U2 Users List
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [U2] [OT] Interview Questions
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Interviewer: What is one of your weak points?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Applicant: My honesty.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Interviewer: I would have thought that was a strong point.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Applicant: I don't give a %^&* what you think you stupid ^&^%$
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>> U2-Users mailing list
> >>>>>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> >>>>>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/****mailman/listinfo/u2-users<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >>>>>> <http**://lists <http://lists>
> >>>>>> erver.u2ug.org/mailman/**listinfo/u2-users<
> http://erver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> U2-Users mailing list
> >>>>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> >>>>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/****mailman/listinfo/u2-users<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >>>>> <http**://listse <http://listse> 
> >>>>> rver.u2ug.org/mailman/**listinfo/u2-users<
> http://rver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  ______________________________****_________________
> >>>> U2-Users mailing list
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> >>>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/****mailman/listinfo/u2-users<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >>>> <http**://listser <http://listser> 
> >>>> ver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/**u2-users<
> http://ver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>  ______________________________**_________________
> >>> U2-Users mailing list
> >>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> >>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >>>
> >>
> >> ______________________________**_________________
> >> U2-Users mailing list
> >> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> >> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >> ______________________________**_________________
> >> U2-Users mailing list
> >> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> >> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________**_________________
> > U2-Users mailing list
> > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
> >
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