Re: [UC] My Role with the List ServeRespect for the principles of open
expression
Truthfulness and honesty in personal and computer identification;
Wilma,
I deleted Winkler from this reply because he is a barking cheese now.
Someone forwarded the links to the Penn policy on use of electronic resources.
Cloaking the censorship policy of [EMAIL PROTECTED] as well as pre banning a
"Resident Of University City" as Penn is now calling barking cheese, would
appear to violate the highest core principals of Penn's stated policy.
You are right on target with the criticisms you've shared with me.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: Wilma de Soto
To: FX Winkler ; Glenn ; Jonathan Herrmann ; UnivCity listserv
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [UC] My Role with the List Serve
This is from a post of mine on July 29, 2007:
"Let's add to that the active recruiting of new members and/or diverting
existing members to the new listserv, because the UC listserv has a bunch of,
fill in the blank: crazies, cranks, belligerent non-viable entities with whom
you would NEVER want to communicate and the sort of people who are just the
fringe elements and not indicative of the wants of the "real community." or:
"Come to our listserv. You'll like it much better! You don't want to join
the UC listserv because...."
Well... I hate to say I told you so.
On 8/2/07 9:44 AM, "FX Winkler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Soon it will be very quiet because the only ones left will be the loonies.
Glenn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Subject: [UC] My Role with the List Serve
All (particularly Glenn Moyer):
Thanks for your reply Jon.
As with Andrew Zitcer's opinion piece in a citywide paper, you should
have disclosed your close relationship with Penn power brokers and leadership
of Campus Philly before I did it for you, and others did for Andrew on this
list. I know you but there are other individuals, who are in fact caught up
with some very distressing Penn initiatives. I don't think badly of you nor do
I have any reason to believe your participation was anything but a mistake. I
simply disclosed your connections and the timing in this very serious matter.
Please consider this a good-natured reprimand.
The issue is not about a lost kitty in the neighborhood so your
disclosure was very important.
You are not a known regular on the list. You came onto a neighborhood
listserv with complaints about this open list, which serves as a serious medium
for communication in this neighborhood. Common individuals have limited
opportunities to freely communicate their ideas unlike Campus Philly or Penn.
In recent news accounts, this list sticks out as being so important that
the discussions are referenced. Some questionable characters with close ties to
the UCD assert that discussions about topics like lost kitties must be the only
topics here. Those posts are important too. But I've noticed that any
discussion of serious issues that might be important to all community residents
are labeled as "noise" when the "wrong" viewpoints or questions are asked.
At a time when a gang of list bullies is pretending that incivility here
is driving them to censorship, you joined in support of the effort without
offering disclosure. If you had been reading the list, you would have known
that Mr. Cassidy and the small chorus of advocates for censorship on a Penn
marketed site are indeed the core of a group of individuals who engage in group
listserv bullying.
They do the bullying against those who speak against some Penn policies
and the incivility of their mates engaging in the listserv bullying. I can show
you a powerful example when a couple of those whom would be banned stood up
against truly disturbing behavior.
A man was murdered in the neighborhood. With what seemed like perverse
pleasure, Cassidy and this "civil" gang were making extremely disturbing
callous jokes about the murder.
These individuals who would be banned and do post with civility stood up
to this perversity while those demanding civility were the abusive ones. In
fact, one of the individuals identified to be banned is a model of civility
while his character is attacked almost daily while the gang of the censored
list cheers on!
Had you been reading the list, you would know that the fallacious
strategies of Mr Cassidy, the Penn employee with complete power and secrecy
over the new list, and the gang have been thoroughly exposed and discredited.
Because this is a free and uncensored list, neighbors exercising their duty as
citizens exposed them just like they completely exposed Andrew Zitcer's ties to
Penn! It was a serious lack of disclosure, and I hope Andrew too made a
mistake.
Your new post suggests you may understand why a Penn internet replacement
of a neighborhood listserv, demanding censorship and control, is a threat to
democratic principals in the twenty-first century??? The people you support
want Penn to replace an extremely valuable community communication medium with
one ruthlessly controlled and censored to support Penn policies.
Jon these people look like bullies and propagandists. Penn is involved
and unfortunately you have involved yourself and it appeared like Campus
Philly. You're not just any employee; you are the director of Campus Philly?
Please consider this request...
I'd like to ask you for some help. I'd like to take a complaint about
cloaking censorship directly to President Gutman's office. Penn is being used
to promote censorship. Penn resources are being used to support and MARKET this
new attempt at what seems like a larger pattern of neighborhood censorship.
That is specifically what bothered me about Andrew's opinion piece not
disclosing his connection in the issues. He was making an attempt to discredit
those whose protest posters about Penn policies are mercilessly torn down by
UCD?
Really take a look at the censored site and the connections on a
upenn.edu mailing list where it is titled "Residents of University City." I
went to Penn too and worked at Penn or with Penn researchers for well over a
decade. I don't want to see this shame for the University.
A normal subscriber would have no chance to understand the censorship
and banning that is protected information under Cassidy's control. The only
clue is the warning that only Cassidy may know whom is subscribed.
Could you set up a meeting with Andrew Zitcer, you, and Ira Harkavy to
discuss this issue?
I'd like to have my complaint considered by the university first. This
is a very serious problem and it will bring shame and embarrassment to the
University. I'd like the three of you to help make sure the complaint gets to
the President's attention.
Mr Cassidy immediately bragged about pre banning individuals. Even a
cursory glance at our list archives will show you that civility can not
possibly be the driving issue for this action.
What message does this send to other "residents of University City?" Penn
is already passively marketing this list as something it is not. When UCD and
other resources do this as well, I believe the picture will be complete for
the media to investigate.
Thanks again for your reply,
Glenn
PS: Did you notice how civil the purple list is since the gang of bullies
is lying low?
----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Herrmann <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:04 PM
Subject: [UC] My Role with the List Serve
All (particularly Glenn Moyer):
There seems to be some confusion about my role with this list serve
controversy. Here are my clarifications:
1 - I live in University City/ West Philly. The nonprofit I direct,
Campus Philly, has nothing to do with my participation on this or any other
list serve in West Philly. In fact, our offices are now in Center City. We do
have a relationship with Penn, Drexel, USIP, and twenty other schools, but we
are an independent nonprofit and we are strictly concerned with our mission to
attract, engage, and employ college students in the city and region.
2 - I have never met Kyle Cassidy, and I once met Bruce Anderson. I am
not in love with Kyle's new list and I am personally not in favor of any "new"
list being on a Penn server. I do applaud Kyle for starting a new list because
this list is very poorly organized, from my perspective, and I wish as a local
resident for a more useful and less abused local list serve. My desire is for
that list serve to be independent from Penn, despite the fact that I attended
Penn, I contribute money to Penn, and on the whole I think Penn has done great
work for the community. I think we are wasting resources by not using a
universal service like Yahoo or Google that constantly adds new and useful
community features. West Philly Freecycle is amazing, and simple, and not
abused. But it is not a forum.
3 - There has been an idea publicly floated by Bruce Anderson to merge
the "new" list with the PFSNI list. I have no opinion about the PFSNI list,
except that it is significantly less abusive than the UnivCity list, and
therefore I read the PFSNI list. I presume that Penn runs the list as a service
to the community, as PFSNI stands for Penn Faculty, Students, Neighborhood,
Something... I therefore presume that if the "community" wanted to "take it
over," then people on that list and at Penn should get together and talk about
it.
4 - The first time I ever spoke to anyone about this issue was my
e-mail to UnivCity applauding the concept. I would not be writing about it
publicly again if my company's name hadn't been alluded to in an e-mail.
5 - I am personally (solely on my own behalf, not on behalf of my
organization, my wife, or my wife's synagogue) planning to participate in an
offline conversation about the need for a better list. I will publicly let you
know that I wish there were a better list in this community, but I do not have
any negative wishes against this list. I will simply unsubscribe when there is
a better alternative. If I can be helpful to anyone working to create a better
community list serve, I am not embarrassed to offer that help. I don't think it
is called a conspiracy when it is done publicly.
Thank you,
Jon Grabelle Herrmann
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