> Never mind the "bus speeds" of the VRAM or the PCI card. The speedof the video chip serving the video out is the *only* thing that's important on older Macs.
Can you elaborate on that just a bit? As I understand it, Quartz renders each window (including component like menus) and then sends the already rendered bitmap to the card. This is why you can save memory and improve performance by keeping the windows compressed.
I don't know about the mechanics, I only know what I see on the screen (see below).
> The onboard video of the 73-9600 Macs isvery slow for OS X. Even a Beige G3 rev.B (Rage Pro) is noticeably faster with a same G3 chip/RAM config in it.
The Beige G3 has a 66 MHz system bus, so it's got 33% faster access to main memory than a 7500. That means it can render bitmaps larger than the cache (that is, just about any large windows) 33% faster than the 7500. If that's the bottleneck, and that seems to be the case, I'd expect the Beige G3 to be faster with a given CPU.
You can't do an apples-apples comparison on the G3 because it's got no built-in video to compare it with. You can on the 7500. Do you know where there's any kind of report on that?
The Beige G3 has built in video. The Rev. A Beige G3s have ATI Rage II video on the motherboard which is not accelerated for OS X and the Rev. B has ATI Rage Pro video on the motherboard which is (minimally) accelerated for OS X.
If you install a PCI ATI Rage128 or better card in a 7300-9600, it's video is much faster than either of the Beiges using it's motherboard video, because the Rage128 chip is much better than both older Rages. The 33 MHz PCI slot it's installed into is not holding it back at all relative to the Beige's slow motherboard video.
I could discuss some subtleties of Bus speeds vs PCI bus speeds but the short answer is: the PCI bus can transfer 133 MB/sec but the Beige only transfers data at 66 MB/sec thru it's MBoard bus. The 7300-9600s only get 50 MB/sec. The PCI slot is not the bottleneck.
BTW: adding a G4 to either Mac will increase it's data transfers by 50-60% vs. a G3, so get one!
> A Rage128 PCI card is *much* faster than the onboard video for OS X(and OS 9, too).
OS/9, yes, Quickdraw can make good use of 2d acceleration.
OS/X? That's what I'm trying to find out. I've had people confidently assert both that it would make good use of 2d and that it doesn't matter if the video is accelerated or not if you're not using OpenGL.
What I haven't seen is any kind of figures.
In OS X, the PCI Rage128 is *much* faster than the 7300-9600's "50 MHz" onboard video, It is also *much* faster than the Beige's "66MHz" onboard video. I have installed it in both of these machines and it works very well, noticeably faster than the motherboard video on both.
> In fact, I find that to be a requirement for auseable OS X experience on any Mac. A PCI Rage 128, Radeon Mac Ed. or Radeon 7000 Mac. Ed. will make OS X fun to use even with only a 300 MHz G3 and 256 MB RAM. Just remember to use OS 10.2.x and set the video to Thousands of colors for best speed.
I've heard that, but I get significantly better speed with millions of colors. When I went from 2M to 4M VRAM I didn't see any difference until I increased the screen depth.
Video speed is slower in OS X in slower computers (less than 800 MHz G4) under Millions of colors than under Thousands. In OS 9, many high performance video cards did scroll faster under Millions of colors vs. Thousands because the drivers were optimized for Millions only. But OS X's heavy dependence on screen candy takes it's toll and it's measurably faster using Thousands because it's slinging half the data around (16 bits vs. 32 bits per pixel). I can send scrolling results for a dozen+ computers under OS X and 9 if you like. I've tested them with different processors and video cards (more in OS 9 than X) with 256 to Millions of Colors.
My conclusion is that any Mac in OS X running about a 800 MHz G4 or less will see a speed benefit from running Thousands vs. Millions.
> WeLoveMacs' 16M Rage VR is a Rage128 based card, then you're set.
I forgot to put the "if" in there: "If it's a Rage128...". It depends on the price. At ~half the $$ of a R7000, it's worth the $$ for an older Mac.
Yeh, I keep looking at that. Also, the Radeon 7000 OWC's selling.
Then I look at this 64M PC Geforce-2 for $40, and get depressed. :-P
arg... yes.
> Don't mess with the 17" CRT ASD without a supported video card in anappropriate G4. Get a 17" CRT to replace it for $100 or less.
I already have a 17" CRT, but it's not nearly as 1337 as the CRT ASD with its '60s BBC glam sci-fi styling.
Oh well.
Yeah, I have a client with one of those 17" ADC CRTs and they're sweet. Anytime I see a catalog trying to look mod sans LCDs, that CRT's in there.
- Tom
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