Michael / Jack / Thingamabob,
Struts is licensed in such a way that if you are unhappy with the way it
is being managed, you are quite free to fork the code and continue to
develop it in whatever way *you* see fit.
I suspect you'd make a lot of people very happy if you went away and did
that.
Steve
Dakota Jack wrote:
Struts could live by improving in ways unlikely with the present
management. The people in charge of Struts these days are really
interested in something else. Unless the baton passes to those
actively building something, Struts likely will either die from be
non-competitive with like products or from being turned into something
it is not, like JSF, Shale, Clay, Dirt.
On 7/26/05, Greg Reddin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Interesting this discussion would come up now. I've been in and out of
Struts for about 5 years. I'm now coming back in and taking interest in
JSF/Shale, etc. A few of points to think about:
1. Struts will someday die. If it doesn't, then we've seen the end of
technology advancement. If those of us who love Struts and what it
provides want to continue to have influence going forward, we have to be
ready to embrace the next thing that's better than Struts and add
value there. Staying with something because of familiarity is typically
the road to becoming a dinosaur in technology.
2. I only started studying JSF seriously about 2 weeks ago. From what
I've seen it takes the best things Struts offers and brings them into a
somewhat cleaner package. Those things are:
* Nice HTML tag library.
* Auto-populating of form beans.
* Simple controller interface.
It also expands on these things by making the view easier to develop,
less restriction on how form beans and controllers are developed, and
some other really interesting services that I've only begun to play
with. To sum it up, using JSF out of the box I can do most of what I
can with Struts, only quicker and with less code. I see JSF as the next
step of Struts. But it's still not complete. I'm only beginning to see
what Shale adds to JSF and am following Shale with great interest.
3. PHP. I've done some PHP over the last couple years. I'm by no
means an expert, but I do know my way around somewhat. The whole time
I've caught myself thinking if I was in Java I'd have a better way to do
just about everything. But most of the "better way" is because of the
J2EE APIs, Struts, and Tiles. The language is a bit more cumbersome
than Java and it's much more difficult to modularize. I find PHP is
easier (to me) if I don't try to make things elegant, but just "spew
code" to some extent. I finally found a CMS to use as a Struts-like
framework, but I still find Java/Struts and now JSF to be better,
cleaner, and more modular. I am now trying to figure out a way to do my
future "on-the-side" consulting in Java instead of PHP.
I think another of PHPs success factors has to do with its acceptance
from the open source community. Somehow Java has had a somewhat tainted
reputation due to the lack of a truly open complete implementation --
and probably some are just bitter that Sun hasn't opened the whole thing
up. I don't personally have anything to contribute to that debate, but
I suspect it's a factor in why PHP has been so widely embraced on the
web compared to Java.
So all in all, it doesn't much matter to me if JSF supercedes Struts.
If it's better, then it should. If we get behind Shale it think we can
have our cake and eat it too.
BTW, for JSF info, try MyFaces. Their Getting Started section points to
some pretty good tutorials. In short testing I've found the myfaces
implementation to be pretty stable. I'm actually surprised Craig is not
listed as a contributor to that project.
That's my 50 cents.
Greg
Daniel Perry wrote:
Sorry for the OT postings.
My point was that you cant compare usage of PHP with Struts.
The number of Struts sites (or even java sites) will never overtake the
number of PHP sites for the reasons i pointed out (although... zend are
doing their best to kill off php by trying to move it into the enterprise
arena and tying it with java). But for those same reasons, comparing the
two is useless.
As for JSF... It seems like a nice idea, but i havnt fully got my head round
it. I cant see it killing off struts in the short term (just look at daily
rate of postings on this list!!!) I do like the idea of replacing struts
html tags with JSF. I certainly think JSTL/EL are nicer than the logic
tags.
I now have a dilema... I'm just about to start on another project. What
technologies do i use?
I guess i'll probably stick with struts. Though i may dabble with JSF a
bit.
Can anyone recommend any good resources? Sure a google search provides tons
of information... but which is any good?
Daniel.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Benussi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 10:38
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
No offence but this is a daft conversation that I have seen too
many times.
Say Struts is dead to a certain Blue vendor who has just releases their
latest Portal server which is built on Struts and they may smile wryly.
The number of sites out there running Struts is huge and the number of
products that rely on it as also fairly big. Anyone in the
telecoms industry
will know how even the latest version of Broadvision uses Struts.
I have attended some JSF talks, and the technology seems powerful but I am
not sold. I came to server side programming from DHTML and like the way
struts still lets you work at that end with large freedom but
also a lot of
powerful taglibs.
If Struts 'dies' I will take it on personally and do whatever it
needs that
it seems to be lacking.
I have never done any PHP so I can't comment, but agree with the previous
comments in so far as Struts/Java/Servlets is for large applications. I
would not build a suite of actions and database pooling for my old mans
plane photos web site.
As for this server requirements, yes Java (Tomcat whatever else) needs
server resources, but once its loaded it flies as its threaded. Am I right
in thinking PHP is not threaded i.e. holding F5 on a PHP page can
cause some
processing issues? Anyway no offence but I don't want to know the answer.
This is a Struts list and I accept JSF is vaguely relevant but I am not
going to utter another sentence about PHP.
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 09:46
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
PHP / (origional) JSP are the same stuff really. Scripted web page. Main
difference is php not OO (well, the api isnt), and php doesnt require any
declarations/typing - which makes it nicer for less able programmers.
But the big difference is server requirements. JSP uses a lot more server
resources. PHP can be made available on the cheapest mass virtual hosting
servers. JSP (let alone full java web apps) cant.
Also, pretty much anyone with any programming skills can pick up php in a
couple of days. Same cant be said for e.g. Struts+Java+JSP+Servlet etc.
This is why i am forced to use php for most sites (ok, so i
normally pass it
on to someone else here), and i tend to use struts for larger sites/apps
that are going to be hosted internally/on dedicated servers.
Daniel.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Henry Xu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 26 July 2005 04:17
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
JSF has been there for a while. We have to see how it does in
real applications.
EJB has been there for many years, but its complexity of
configuration (at least before mature tools were developed) kept
many J2EE projects expensive and over budgets (bad ROI examples).
Thus we have so many frameworks in Java. Sun is to be blamed for
always providing UNPROVEN technologies for java. In many cases,
following sun too closely is not wise.
PHP was great but I hope java can catch up in real application.
John H. Xu
http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
----- Original Message -----
From: netsql
To: user@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: JSF is the beginning of the end of Struts !!!
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:13:05 -0500
>
> John Public wrote:
> > After just finishing my JSF class, I can confidently
> > confirm that JSF will eventually lead to Struts
> > becoming OBSOLETE.
>
> :-) Enhydra and Torque would say that too circa 2001.
> Put up a site and lets see it.
>
> > Let's all get
> > behind JSF before MS takes over the web.
>
> Nothing wrong w/ C# IMO.
> I think PHP is "best(fast and cheap, lowest risk, most roi)" for
> "genric" server side rendering applications. (But then... I think
> the future is client side rendering )
> If JSF(or EJB) fails, it won't be becuase somone did not "get
behind it".
>
> Competition should give us best answer, and I am all for using
> better tech. Every few years I'd like a new tech please.
>
>
> -- .V
>
> People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up
their
> mail box.
> roomity.com
>
> No sign up to read or search this Rich Internet App.
>
>
>
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist and editor
http://www.usanalyst.com
http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)
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