Bertrand,
Ah merci pour votre response! Oh, pardonne-moi, my French _is_ rusty after several years of inactivity :(
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
Le 23 juin 04, � 17:03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a �crit :
...You're right. My feeling is slightly different though. Context: I'm trying to tame Cocoon to make it useful for some lab exercises for our students...
FYI I've been using Cocoon successfully for teaching XML-based publishing: make a simple zip-file based install where people just need to install a JVM, a script which makes sure the right JVM is used to start Cocoon and you're set.
Installation etc is not really an issue in my setting, since I've set-up a whole environment where I can experiment almost at will. See, for example: http://www.cs.uu.nl/beleidslab
I've shown them just the bare minimum sitemap concepts, taught them XSLT essentials (using JEdit at first before moving to Cocoon, and *not* showing them for-each and xsl:choose to avoid slipping to procedural) and given minimal XSL-FO knowledge my students have been happily building simple multichannel web sites.
OK. I see your point - especially the programming part :) I'm convinced not many people realize there's three different paradigms tied together in Cocoon (functional, procedural, declarative). The problem is that I have to get into the web application arena ...
You're right that web applications quickly get more complicated, but have you looked at the "tour" block? I've used this tutorial successfully in half-day workshops to show the big picture of Cocoon to java programmers and they've been happy: I think it shows which functionality and blocks are more important and which ones one can just leave for later, just keeping in mind that they exist.
Again, point taken. My _real_ issue is that we have a 2-year master's programme at our university specifically aimed at content and knowledge engineering (CKE). Our students typically have a broad interest in technological, human factors and social/management issues. They are not expert Java jockeys, but keen on learning the required skills whenever they're sufficiently motivated and see their relevance.
Ergo, I need a way to just flatten the learning curve a bit. I want to be one step ahead of the crowd. I am basically educated much like our students. Broad interest but with some years of experience in different areas. I _am_ an experienced Java developer, to begin with :) I want to prepare some documentation, a lab set-up, slides, custom built Actions, database configurations etc. Lure folks into more complicated projects.
I also need some convincing applications. Not just interesting from the technical perspective - like many Cocoon demos - but from a real-world angle. Bridge the gap between techies and the rest. Think modelling your business proces in XML. Simulate a small multichannel publishing firm. Demonstrate how Cocoon delivers special offers from your local store as a brochure to your mailbox (pdf), the web (html) and your cellphone.
Use Cocoon to personalize course materials.
Just my two cents - with about 50 blocks in Cocoon today, I think the learning process needs to be focused on what people need at their level of knowledge, and a big part of the teacher's job is to keep them from losing themselves in this big playground.
Exactly. Which is why the teacher gets impatient when he looses himself in the proces ;)
Cheers, Sandor
----------------------------------------------------------------------- NEW! international master programme 'Content and Knowledge Engineering' see: http://www.informationscience.nl/ My personal coordinates: http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/sandor/
"Our minds are harnessed by knowledge, by the hill and the will to succeed". From: Fish, "Vigil in a wilderness of mirrors"
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