On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 10:22, Lester Ward wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > Fair enough, development ease is certainly a valid use case but I
> > honestly see this as a limitation of the tools being used that aren't
> > flexible enough themselves to deal with different locations
> 
> This is the biggest trap of open source development. A lot of projects are
> not around any more because they fell prey to the "my tool would be great if
> other people would just shape up" syndrome. Or the worse, the "my tool .is.
> great and the rest of you can conform to it" syndrome.

Your analysis is simply erroneous. We don't make changes arbitrarily for
the sake of making changes or to cause users long-term grief. So far I
think I've done all right in OSS using similiar practices that I employ
for Maven. Velocity, Apache XmlRpc, OJB, BCEL are all and haven't fallen
prey to disuse yet.  

> Yes, it would be great if the rest of the world built tools that were
> flexible, but three facts intrude:
> 
> 1) They sometimes don't.
> 2) The probably never will.

Again, I believe you are wrong and that given the benefits users derive
from Maven they will eventually start asking makers of tools to
accomodate Maven's methods of development.

But ultimately you can do anything you want with a pre/post goal to
bridge any differences until some tools change but it won't matter if
they don't.

> 3) You have no control over them.

In my case I do because I use all OSS tools which are subject to various
forms of influence.

> Yes, reality sucks.

Reality is fine because no one is trying to stuff Maven down your
throat. I'm well aware of 1, 2 and 3.

> One last point: what you are basically suggesting above is that all the
> other tools in the world should be made flexible enough to allow you to make
> your tool less flexible. This doesn't seem like a defensible philosophy to
> me.

I don't feel compelled to defend my philosophy because it manifests
itself in Maven and you're obviously using it so you must already agree
to some extent. And I can see that you care because you're arguing with
me which I take as a compliment. 

Even when Maven was within Jakarta I never tried to push Maven on anyone
and in fact stopped a couple attempts of others who were trying to pimp
Maven. You do not have to use Maven, I personally don't care if you use
Maven and I doubt any of the other Maven developers do either. There are
other choices and that is ultimately where your freedom lies, but if you
choose Maven then you're subject to what we feel is important. None of
us are unreasonable just a little stubborn. 

In any even I will take your "relocatable build directory for 
debugging" use case and put it in here:

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-components/USE-CASES.txt?rev=1.9&view=auto


> -- 
> jvz.
> 
> Jason van Zyl
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
> 
> In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
> and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
>   
>   -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society


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