Your personal list of "stuff I don't know how to do, but should
probably know" is specific to your experiences and expectations.
My list is different. Everyone who reads this email probably has a
different list in their head.
How can we reasonably:
1) Get that list from everyone
2) Answer all their questions
3) Distribute this to everyone
4) Keep it updated
This sounds like a FAQ or Cookbook. Well, we have a FAQ (and a
Cookbook) on the Maven site, it just doesn't happen to contain your
specific questions (yet). How do you propose we do a better job with
#1 above? Then we can worry about 2, 3, and 4.
I think this is as good an approach to fixing things as anything else.
Wayne
On 9/26/07, Patrick Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Brian --
>
> I certainly do agree with you that the maven website / documentation
> definitely needs the improvements you outlined. However, if you are relying
> on documentation to cover up for maven's deficiencies that is a waste of
> time. Good documentation supports a good product but it can't be expected to
> act as a band-aid for maven's usability issues.
>
> Now I use maven every day. So I am not throwing rocks from the sidelines at
> all. I have used maven for a year. I am using it to build my company's
> product. But I have neither the time, nor desire to be a maven expert.
>
> And that is the fundamental problem,:
>
> Software developers assume that the user is a novice who wants to become an
> expert, or an expert.
>
>
> There is no allowance for the reality that the vast majority of users are
> **comfortably mediocre**. That is to say they are not beginners ("don't need
> that wizard thank you very much") but also have no desire to become experts
> ("manager pays me to write features not become maven expert").
>
> In maven it is very easy to get started. Put everything in magical
> directories and magic happens. But lets say you forgot a command in maven?
>
> what does "mvn help" or "mvn -?" get the end user?
>
> Some goobly-gook about plugins or some very useless commandline arguments!
>
> Some basic things that are a pain to do in maven:
>
> 1. How do you copy a file from one directory to another just before a
> war is constructed? I haven't a flipping clue!
> 2. How do I have maven run my project... once again not a clue... ( or
> just spit out a commandline that I can pipe to a .bat file)
> 3. How about making sure all files needed are available so I can run
> disconnected?
> 4. How about being able to answer the question... why is this jar in
> my build?
> 5. How do I exclude a jar from my build no matter what dependency asks
> for it?
>
> Not that there isn't a way to do it but keep in mind if it is harder to do
> something in maven than in a shell script there is a problem! And telling me
> to RTFM is just rude. I am working 14 hours a day and my kids want me to
> spend time with them. Am I going to spend time learning maven or playing
> with my 5-year-old?
>
> Telling me that I should be an expert in maven is just ridiculous. Being an
> expert in maven is not going to make my company successful. Being an expert
> in powerpoint has a better ROI than being a maven expert!
>
> So rather than spend time on a web site (which I rather not visit) -- take
> the time to make the simple, simple in maven, and to maven help out the
> user.
>
> And for C*tsake make mvn help do something!
>
> I would suggest for starters look at what perforce's client does to help out
> user. Until mvn has at least that level of help, I wouldn't even bother
> spending the time on the website.
>
> As a *mediocre* user, I don't care how superior maven's plugin architecture
> is... I am never going to write a plugin anyhow -- no time! I will use a
> shell script first.
>
> Long live the *mediocre* user... and support them...
>
> -Pat
>
> P.S. sorry if I am a little harsh but I have lived this problem for too many
> years in too many companies.
>
>
> On 9/26/07, Brian E. Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > A common theme in the "maven is hard" thread is bad documentation and
> > I'd like to explore this a little. For the sake of discussion, lets
> > separate the plugin docs from the maven site. (Why? Because each plugin
> > site is like it's own little world and some are good and some are bad.
> > We can have that discussion after)
> >
> >
>
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