HI AG,
You actually sound for the most part like a thinking person so I decided to
respond to this post. Most of my comments will be inline but one thing I'd
like to mention right off the bat: If you reassemble the whole thread (and
I'm not suggesting you need to) you'll notice that it's off-topic posts
concerning which OS the OP should use; something the OP neither asked for
nor indicated any use for, that initiated the Linux comments on my part. One
of the earliest called his OS "crap" I believe it was, and said Linux was a
solution, which is generally never the case.
Linux, which has some fine distributions, just isn't ready to be turn-key
and probably shouldn't be anyway. It does however require a certain amount
of technical ability to be able to get it to do all the things one needs,
and to source/implement replacements for former MS programs and hardware.
For one who is strictly a "user" it doesn't fit well unless a resident guru
of some sort is available in most cases of a pure computer "user".
I'm sure you'll agree that "never" and "always" are two words that should
be struck from use; they cannot be known to be "never" and "always" by any
person and thus no matter how hard and fast the rule, there will always be
exceptions and/or differences to anything.
In news:[email protected],
AG <[email protected]> typed:
Twayne wrote:
<snip>
...
No; the features and functions I NEED, not want, is the key there. MS
still have the corner on several things LInux hasn't yet opened
up. It may someday, but ... not yet.
If you are serious about this, then perhaps you could furnish a list
of the software you NEED. The chances are, unless it is a proprietary
code-base, there are similarly functioning FOSS packages out there.
Similarly, many of the distros like Ubuntu and OpenSUSE and Fedora
tend to have an incredible range of hardware that they will work with
out of the box.
I've furnished my list of NEEDs before, but in Linux territory, even here in
this group a couple of times. You'll have to pardon me if I don't get it out
and relist it here since there is little chance it would get read by any
person who had any good answers; this thread has degraded seriously and
likely draws few readers at this point in time.
Here's an example of what I do get when I do ask for specifics. I think I
mentioned that PaintShop Pro has a lot of capabilties I use often that
aren't duplicated in other programs.
Unfortunately it doesn't run on Linux and Corel has no plans to port it
anytime soon.
The most frequent suggestion is to try Gimp. I have tried it, and found
it lacking in the features and functions I use the most. Ease of use and GUI
aren't real important to me as I can get along with most any format as long
as it makes sense; it's all based on compatability with my needs whether it
can be a replacement or not. I LIKE gimp and still use it on occasion, but
it doesn't do everything I need.
Occasionally other solutions are offered and I've looked at the majority
of them, but do ignore things like irfanview and the like because I already
have them and know what they can and cannot do.
Actually, as far as image editing goes, I don't know of ANY program that
can 100% compete with PaintShop Pro, although PhotoShop comes close. I use
both programs, depending on what I need to do, but PaintShop Pro gets the
most use. Each have their own strengths and weaknesses but to do the same
things with Linux I'd need a minimum of at least three, more likely 4 or
more, applications and a lot more time and effort to use them.
I haven't run the gamut of things I need or wish to have in probably close
to 6 months now so things may be changing finally - but I won't know if
anything improves until I go out and do all the research. My goal is to be
free of MS as a single-sourced OS at least on this machine.
For the majority of home users, and front office corporate
employees, FLOSS alternatives are equal to, or better than those
from Microsoft.
FOSS or FLOSS doesn't matter;
From your (limited) user perspective that may be the case.
Well, I don't see a thing wrong with MY (limited) perspective: It is THE one
that matters to me. And what will matter to the majority of those who
frequent this newsgroup.
But, in
all seriousness, the issue of Free and Open Source Software *does*
matter, and it matters very much given the larger scope of things.
You misread something if you think I said that they never matter. In fact, I
mentioned that at one point I am using a lot of open source ware. But again,
the "scope" of things is MY OWN interests, not those of big business and the
overall picture. There things become entirely different in many but not all
ways.
For example, given the recently leaked spybook from MS (search
wikileaks), one should be very concerned about how your closed source
OS collects data about you and your usage of what remains,
ultimately, their machine (read the EULA of the next Windows install
you do). Moreover, there are significant ethical issues that emerge
from the closed profit-making use of what is, effectively, human
intellectual property - not anything that is owned by any one
corporation to the exclusion of everyone else. MS stands on the
shoulders of giants, but it would have you believe that it got there
all by itself in a sealed bubble.
I'm not sure why you bothered wtih that paragraph, but in the overall there
is a bit of truth to some of it. It's a sidetrack to the issues at hand IMO
and not an issue to the vast majority of normal users. Where you want to
defend or denigrate an entire industry at a time, my meager requirements are
irrelevant to most of that. I have no choice at the moment in the OS I use
unless I want to work 24/7, which I do not.
it's the features and functions one NEEDS that are the crux of it
all. I go open source, GPL, anything open source first, and if it
can do what I NEED it to do, then great.
This is hard to believe considering your earlier report of how
GNU/Linux keeps falling over for you ("it just plain falls down on
its face in my case. " ). I suspect that somehow you won't be
putting a lot of effort into finding something that works on a system
that falls down on you frequently.
I see nothing contradictory at all in your reference. I NEED, have it here,
don't have it there, even though I wish it WERE there. You're also splitting
hairs at "Linux" fall over on me; Linux as a system is simply NOT capable of
providing me with what I NEED at this time.
If unfortunately I can only find those things from a proprietary
company, well, that's life. "FLOSS alternatives" are as good as the
authors and contributors of the programs and it has little to do with
being "better" because it's FLOSS or MICROSOFT or whomever;
Again, this is FUD. If you've ever programmed anything you will
realise that no matter what - bugs creep into the code.
I program in everything from batch to VB6 (original) to the .net versions,
Python and several other languages and dialects such as VBA, etc.. It's
actually an irrelevant comment to anything though. I didn't say bugs do NOT
creep into code!
Having
numerous people able to scrutinise that code makes that code a lot
more robust and generally secure (at least in terms of the usual
Yes. IF they write code that is NEEDED. The fact that it hasn't been written
and cannot yet meet my requirements is paramount.
buffer overflows, etc.) than code that is sealed under proprietary
ownership laws, where one team of developers is not allowed to see
what the other teams are working on due to security risks, etc.
That's true of projects, which are an excellent source of good open source
programming and which I support highly. But that does NOT say that it's been
scrutinized by a large group of people, especially when it's not in a
project site, or that it has even been well BETA tested. And the number of
times you come across dormant development efforts, such as the fantastic NVU
project for an example, especially non-projects, and even within the
project-sited ware is interesting and sad. Then you get places like Avira
and freeware-hits.de that actually use their installed base for covert BETA
testing, and the task becomes just a little more difficult. I support and
use some freeware-hits products because they'll actually openly discuss
things with you but places like Avira you only get to recognize it via their
forums - so I don't support them. Their resonses were really nonchalant
about "bugs are bound to get by the checking process". Nuh, uh, not those
kinds of bugs. MS isn't immune from it either by any means; I can readily
think of at least two updates they had to quickly follow up with updates to
their updates with. Both of them opened more holes than they plugged.
Which opens another area of Linux problems, if I may take your own
approach to adding things. Linux has a lot of known holes and if/when their
market share becomes viable, will end up being similar to what MS does only
via some very hard to use and often confusing bug reporting systems.
Moreover, you will find that in study after study (except for those
funded by MS), bug fixes are rolled out faster in FOSS world and that
security breaches are corrected for quicker.
Sure; if you hand select them, and all the other reasons that would also
plague LInux if/when it manages to go mainstream.
it's functionality that is key. There just is no panacea that's going
to be turn key in any way for any large group; perhaps groups within
a group, but not 100%.
Pass - no idea what you're on about.
My requirements are modest: It should never be single-sourced as in a
Microsoft product whenever possible and more importantly must support
the NEEDED features and functions it is being pursued for. The
greatest program in the world is of no use or interest to me if it
doesn't provide features and functionality that I need.
Again, very confused/ confusing and states the obvious about software
features, etc.
Yes, in particular my initial claim: Linux industry does NOT support what I
need for features and functions.
For the majority of back office server usage, propriety and FLOSS
solutions are on a par.
That's debatable, misdirects original generalities into specifics and
basically changes the flavor of the thread. As such, it's of no use
to this conversation.
Actually, it is relevant and you opened the door for this by your
ridiculous claim that you made about GNU/Linux when you wrote: "Linux
is good for those who run certain programs only and consistantly and
the distro includes any drivers they might need to support, or they
can at least be downloaded and added to the OS. Unfortunately for
most serious computer users though, unless you were brought up on
Linux of any flavor, it just doesn't fit the bill."
No, it's quite irrelevant to my wish to be able to run Linux and still have
all the feature and function that I need. I don't even get to "want" because
the "need" is still not met.
At the very high end of things, Linux solutions, albeit proprietary,
are better than those from Microsoft.
Again, debatable, obvious in some, not so obvious in others and
completely irrelevant to my objection to simply spewing "Linux is
best" as a way of jumping on microsoft. I'll jump all over Microsoft
for some very obvious and negative things they've done but I also do
it with reason, not from a simple fanatic background that has no
intent other than to libel and defame.
Get off of your soapbox Twayne. The poster, Jonathon, was making no
fanatical comments, but merely pointing out trends that can be found
quite readily if you did some research of your own. You are the one
who is coming across as an eye-rolling mouth foamer, not Jonathon.
I abhor Microsoft in fact, but the fact remains that they have the OS
I NEED and which has the functions and features LInux does not.
That's debatable. If MS has the OS you NEED, then baby you are in
deep doo doo, because MS owns your scrawny ass. Another one bites
the dust.
Deep doo doo along with many millions of others like me and those who are
completely happy with MS products. Your scare-mongering is lost on most
people here and just doesn 't wash. And, if you actually read material on
the subject, it is HIGHLY debatable! I see little concensus in it,
actually.
I repeat: MS provides what I NEED. Linux does not. I'd like to see
Linux provide it, but the fact remains: It does not.
It's as simple as just not using an OS that is sub-par for MY needs.
I am ME and no one else. I don't care what others think unless they
are jerks that want to claim Linux is any kind of 100% turnkey for
anything. Only limited experience can provide that kind of
background.
Yada yada yada. My my - I get the impression that you probably want
to be seen as some kind of uber-geek because only MS meets your
needs, not some sub-par OS (e.g. GNU/Linux, Mac OSX, *BSD as the big
three alternatives).
Not at all, but I can't resist the temptation to say that sounds like
projection on your part to uber-geek around. You are the one who brings up
all the irrelevant sidetrips to areas that, although there may be some truth
in them, are not relevant to what I NEED in order to bypass the MS OS, and
makes comments like "IF" I did this n that, twisting enough to say I don't,
when you have absolutely no way to know such things.
...
There is some truth to that, but as with the other claims, it's not
across the board and by the sheer existence of those facts, nothing
stops LInux from forking or superceding those features and functions
with better code and more ingenuity, something Microsoft has been
very lean on for several years now. You can succumb to that line of
thinking if you wish, or better yet believe that there are engenius
entrepreneurs and partners out there who aren't afraid of such things
and know how to do them properly. Sun is a good example of such a
company and more are popping up every day.
...
lol! Very funny. Go buy a Commodore 64 and it won't help a lot
there either.
And your point is ... ?
My point is: It does NOT meet my needs! But you keep telling me how well it
serves an entire industry even though it still cannot support my and many
other like me, requirements and needs.
...
Linux, BSD, and OpenSolaris run just fine.
Again, huh? Is that supposed to goad me into providing my own
list? EVERY successful operating systems "run just fine". That means
nothing though w/r to whether they meet my requirements or not.
No, but it again challenges your dopey arguments in favour of MS and
your cavalier dissing of FOSS alternatives.
<snip>
After a moment's deliberation and thinking about your comments and
how you made them, I've come to my own conclusion that you are
trolling rather than actually discussing anything.
Well that's that then. You managed to come to your own conclusion
about someone else's motivation, even though there is nothing in
Jonathon's post that would actually suggest trolling, you have come
to that conclusion. Why? Because you don't like what he had to say?
Because he didn't allow you to get away with your baseless
hand-waving?
Oh? Even your post, at this point, suggests you are trolling, providing
bait in an effort to illicit retorts and hopefully flames. Nice try though.
I like a good discussion of on topic subjects but multiple instances
of a closed mind show through your writing and tell me you're a waste
of time to spend further time with.
As Jonathon is no doubt thinking about you as well.
Am I supposed to care?
Thus, in looking back over my own writing, I notice I've treated you
with responses typical of your own, as I often do, when I decide I
have a closed mind or a troller wanting a platform.
But you wouldn't object to your own use of this platform would you,
because you are inviolate and driven by pure intentions, pursuing the
noble cause of MS.
Wow, you need glasses or should start reading with your blind eye. Perhaps
some work on reading comprehension would have helped in many of the areas
you seem upset about.
The OP was quite right - it is indeed certainly
within the realms of reason, and the experience of many thousands,
that the OP's OS (MS) is just plain crap.
And many millions of the opposite opinion, and millions more who are as yet
undecided. I just realized you do have a tendancy to paint the whole world
with one color.
Get over it. No one
needed your self-important diatribe on how GNU/Linux sucks and how MS
rules (even though it is also crap and how you abhor it so),
No, you need to be a lot less myopic and open your mind a tad to let some
light in. All one color again.
nor your
claims about how Jonathon (or whomever) is a troll.
I calls 'em as I sees 'em. If it quacks like a duck ... . I don't know who
it was; I respond to the posts, not to names as a rule.
...
Twayne
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