Top quoting: thanks all - let's do that. I'll add to the
downref registry before the telechat unless someone else
on the IESG yells.

Cheers,
S.

On 21/04/15 00:42, joel jaeggli wrote:
> On 4/20/15 4:08 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 20/04/15 23:59, Barry Leiba wrote:
>>>> To wit, I am not ignoring the process.
>>>>
>>>>    Once a specific down reference to a particular document has been
>>>>    accepted by the community (e.g., has been mentioned in several Last
>>>>    Calls), an Area Director may waive subsequent notices in the Last
>>>>    Call of down references to it.  This should only occur when the same
>>>>    document (and version) are being referenced and when the AD believes
>>>>    that the document's use is an accepted part of the community's
>>>>    understanding of the relevant technical area.  For example, the use
>>>>    of MD5 [RFC1321] and HMAC [RFC2104] is well known among
>>>>    cryptographers.
>>>
>>> The problem is that as far as I can find, it hasn't been mentioned in
>>> *any* last calls.  I'm bummed: as I said, I don't think that doing
>>> this helps anyone, and that we should change BCP 97 forthwith.
>>
>> I think Joel's argument is that 4949 has been "accepted by
>> the community" in that RFC6749 is 2.5 years old and nobody
>> noticed. The "several last calls" above is just an example
>> in the text also.
> 
> I think community understanding of the document can be understood in
> terms of cititations inclusive of normative and informative references
> other than simply dowrefs. 4949 is a glossary, many documents of various
> levels refer to it informatively and the contents were or have passed
> into common understanding in the decade since publication.
> 
> The existence of previous documents with downref's  to the document may
> be evidence of an omission (probably is) but in the context of a
> document with a decade long service life with numerous citations, is
> also more evidence that it has passed into common understanding. as with
> the question of whether rfc 20 is actually at a lower maturity level or
> not or even if that matters, the latitude to decide when downrefs are to
> be waived is invested in the IESG.
> 
> consider in this case the context  in which it is being used
> 
> 2.  Terminology
> 
>    Various security-related terms are to be understood in the sense
>    defined in [RFC4949].
> 
> this is not an original turn of phrase
> 
> I could cite others but:
> 
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6029.txt
> 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749
> 
> https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=various%20security-related%20terms%20are%20to%20be%20understood%20in%20the%20sense%20defined%20in%20%5brfc4949%5d
> 
> etc
> 
>> I can buy into that. (If we go with that I'd say we can add
>> 4949 to the downref registry with the oauth draft as the
>> referring draft and leave the LC date blank.)
> 
> personally I think the evidence for the document being fine to cite  for
> the purpose of defining the word attack certificate confidentiality
> encryption etc is there.
> 
>> S.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> b
>>>
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>>>
>>
> 
> 

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