Just to add to Michael T, VBox does all 3D rendering using host hardware, i.e. NO software-based rendering taking place.
Mikhail On 30.04.2013 0:33, Michael Thayer wrote: > Not sure what you mean by the second part, but regarding the first it > seems to me that we can also achieve that by working on (our in-tree > version of) the code, which is exactly what we are doing. It would be > faster if we had more developers available for the task, but I have > doubts as to whether tying up what development time we have in a major > re-write of the code is really going to improve that. > > Regards, > > Michael > > On 29/04/13 22:18, Michael Slavitch wrote: >> Longer term? More rendering in hardware less in software, full >> productization / support for 3D guest additions, instead of treating >> it like a red-headed stepchild. >> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Michael Thayer >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Hello Michael, >>> >>> Once again, what would you expect that to gain us that our existing solution >>> can't provide? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> On 29/04/13 22:11, Michael Slavitch wrote: >>>> Not there yet. >>>> >>>> I'm glad that there's a fork. Has there been any thought of revisiting the >>>> model towards something more akin to Gallium3D? >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Michael Thayer <[email protected]> >>>> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:03:33 >>>> To: Michael Slavitch<[email protected]> >>>> Cc: <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [vbox-dev] Chromium WebGL vs Angle WebGL >>>> >>>> Hello Michael, >>>> >>>> VirtualBox is not using upstream Chromium - we have forked it and >>>> maintaining our version ourselves. There is certainly room for >>>> improvement there, and you are welcome to contribute, but it is being >>>> actively worked upon on our side. I still haven't find anything on >>>> ANGLE through google to indicate that it is not Windows-only (except >>>> for: "In addition to OpenGL ES 2.0 and EGL 1.4 libraries, ANGLE also >>>> provides a GLSL ES to GLSL translator [...] The translator code is fully >>>> independent of the rest of ANGLE code and resides in $BASE/src/compiler. >>>> Since the translator is supposed to be a cross-platform utility, it uses >>>> a different build system GYP, which generates native project files for >>>> all supported platforms."[1] Do you have a pointer to something relevant? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> [1] http://code.google.com/p/angleproject/wiki/DevSetup >>>> >>>> On 29/04/13 21:36, Michael Slavitch wrote: >>>>> The VirtualBox 3D driver is based on the Chromium OpenGL proxy tool. >>>>> As far as I know Chromium does not support Mac OS X as a platform. >>>>> There hasn't been an official release since 2006. From what I have >>>>> seen on MacOS hosts 3D rendering is done by the host using a mix of >>>>> software and hardware calls. The performance of 3D on Windows guests >>>>> running on MacOS and Linux hosts is somewhat lacking. >>>>> >>>>> Angle is not Windows only, it a cross-platform library that wraps >>>>> local implementations of OpenGL (MacOS, Linux) or DirectX (9 and 10) >>>>> (Windows) with WebGL to access hardware-accelerated libraries using a >>>>> single consistent API. 3D tasks such as shading are done in hardware, >>>>> not software, using common calls. It is used on Mac OS X, Linux, and >>>>> in mobile platforms, as well as in Windows. The major use has been in >>>>> browsers but that is only a circumstance of the energy going towards >>>>> web applications. >>>>> >>>>> Now, I might be wrong but I would be very leery of depending on API's >>>>> from a project that hasn't seen a revision in seven years, and looks >>>>> to be orphaned, when there is a library that allows VirtualBox to >>>>> create host environments that can provide a consistent >>>>> hardware-accelerated graphics API to guest, especially one that is >>>>> still in active development. There seems to be little thought put in >>>>> to 3D support. This has the potential of changing that. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Michael Thayer >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> Hello Michael, >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps I am missing something here, but first I have trouble seeing >>>>>> what >>>>>> ANGLE should provide which we are currently lacking (in fact I am not >>>>>> quite >>>>>> sure what you feel is wrong with our current solution at all which >>>>>> cannot be >>>>>> fixed in place), and secondly it looks from its web page like a >>>>>> Windows-only >>>>>> library to run OpenGL ES on top of DirectX rather than a cross-platform >>>>>> one >>>>>> to translate DirectX into WebGL. I am not even quite clear either why >>>>>> you >>>>>> think we need such a library - are you considering Windows guests being >>>>>> displayed in a host web browser? And if so, do you think that ANGLE >>>>>> would >>>>>> be suitable for being embedded into a guest display driver? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 29/04/13 19:09, Michael Slavitch wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In other words, it's an open-source library that can do for VirtualBox >>>>>>> what Mesa/Gallium3D does for VMWare: Present a consistent OpenGL 3D >>>>>>> library no matter the underlying platform. It has a BSD license. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Michael Slavitch <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The latter is what's used in Oracle VirtualBox to provide WebGL >>>>>>>> services to pass graphics commands to the host. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's what Angle provides, as a library, for applications that can >>>>>>>> use it, and for the same reason, as it allows the same library to >>>>>>>> offer near-native graphics support cross-platform, such that DirectX >>>>>>>> API commands can be translated into WebGL calls supported on myriad >>>>>>>> platforms. They support translation of DirectX 9 and DirectX 10. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Michael Slavitch >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The latter is what's used in Oracle VirtualBox to provide WebGL >>>>>>>>> services, correct? That's what Angle provides, as a library, for >>>>>>>>> applications that can use it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Michael Thayer >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello Michael, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think you have the wrong Chromium there[1][2]. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [1] http://www.chromium.org/ >>>>>>>>>> [2] http://chromium.sourceforge.net/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 29/04/13 17:59, Michael Slavitch wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone investigated replacing the Chromium WebGL used in >>>>>>>>>>> Virtualbox with the capabilities offered by Angle? The result >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> give Windows guests on Linux/MacOS hosts access to >>>>>>>>>>> hardware-accelerated WebGL libraries on the underlying hosts, and >>>>>>>>>>> achieve parity with host implementations when using Direct3D 10 or >>>>>>>>>>> above. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Deets here: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://code.google.com/p/angleproject/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ANGLE is a conformant implementation of the OpenGL ES 2.0 >>>>>>>>>>> specification that is hardware‐accelerated via Direct3D. ANGLE >>>>>>>>>>> v1.0.772 was certified compliant by passing the ES 2.0.3 >>>>>>>>>>> conformance >>>>>>>>>>> tests in October 2011. ANGLE also provides an implementation of the >>>>>>>>>>> EGL 1.4 specification. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ANGLE is used as the default WebGL backend for both Google Chrome >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> Mozilla Firefox on Windows platforms. Chrome uses ANGLE for all >>>>>>>>>>> graphics rendering on Windows, including the accelerated Canvas2D >>>>>>>>>>> implementation and the Native Client sandbox environment. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Portions of the ANGLE shader compiler are used as a shader >>>>>>>>>>> validator >>>>>>>>>>> and translator by WebGL implementations across multiple platforms. >>>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>>> is used on Mac OS X, Linux, and in mobile variants of the browsers. >>>>>>>>>>> Having one shader validator helps to ensure that a consistent set >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> GLSL ES shaders are accepted across browsers and platforms. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The shader translator can be used to translate shaders to other >>>>>>>>>>> shading languages, and to optionally apply shader modifications to >>>>>>>>>>> work around bugs or quirks in the native graphics drivers. The >>>>>>>>>>> translator targets Desktop GLSL, Direct3D HLSL, and even ESSL for >>>>>>>>>>> native GLES2 platforms. >>>>>>>>>>> <<< >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> vbox-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.virtualbox.org/mailman/listinfo/vbox-dev >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Michael Thayer >>>>>>>>>> Werkstrasse 24 VirtualBox engineering >>>>>>>>>> 71384 Weinstadt, Germany mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München >>>>>>>>>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 >>>>>>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. >>>>>>>>>> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande >>>>>>>>>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 >>>>>>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> vbox-dev mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://www.virtualbox.org/mailman/listinfo/vbox-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Michael Thayer >>>>>> Werkstrasse 24 VirtualBox engineering >>>>>> 71384 Weinstadt, Germany mailto:[email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München >>>>>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 >>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz >>>>>> >>>>>> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. >>>>>> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande >>>>>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 >>>>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Michael Thayer >>> Werkstrasse 24 VirtualBox engineering >>> 71384 Weinstadt, Germany mailto:[email protected] >>> >>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München >>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603 >>> Geschäftsführer: Jürgen Kunz >>> >>> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. >>> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande >>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 >>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher > _______________________________________________ vbox-dev mailing list [email protected] https://www.virtualbox.org/mailman/listinfo/vbox-dev
