I'm a latecomer to this, but I qualify as an "interested party".

There is a sizeable community of folks (including myself) using the 
VelocityViewServlet with Maverick.  A runtime dependency on struts.jar would 
be a massive mistake - but you seem to acknowledge that.

As long as there is no runtime dependency, the question for me is, how much 
is the Struts-specific code going to bloat the jar?  Is the Struts-related 
code (like Struts itself) going to inflate wildly out of control or is it 
just a handful of tools that are "done"?  How often will the Struts-related 
code result in new releases unrelated to the VelocityViewServlet?

If I had a vote, it would probably be -0.

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Ok, here's where things stand so far as i can see:
> 
> Commiters:
> +1 nathan
> +1 gabe
> -? geir (sounded like a -1)
> 
> Contributors:
> +1 anthony
> +? tim (not sure where you ended up)
> -? bill (sounded like -0)
> 
> so, at this point, conversation has died.  i answered geir and bill's
> opposing remarks, but they do not appear to have changed their minds.  
since
> geir's vote is binding according to apache rules, i guess i can't go 
forward
> with this.  :-/
> 
> now, i must admit i'm a little frustrated by the lack of response to my
> arguments in favor, and i don't want this to continue to hold things up
> around here.  so, being a notoriously stubborn and thick-headed person i'm
> going to lay out my argument one last time (and include the struts stuff as
> i secretly wanted all along) and then pathetically beg the opposition to
> change.
> 
> ----------
> Reasons We Should Fold The Tools/* Trees Into One:
> 1.  This project is quite small.  Building/distributing 3 jars is serious
> overkill.
> 
> 2.  It makes life easier for the many who use all three trees
> (tools,view,struts).
> 
> 3.  The most (almost the only?) active committer supports this. (yeah, it's
> just me, but that's gotta count for something, right?)
> 
> ----------
> Reasons Against This And Their Counter-Arguments:
> 1.  Those using only tools/tools would have to drag around servlet.jar and
> struts.jar and whatnot.
> 
> Counter:  Those just *using* tools/tools will (at some point soon 
hopefully)
> be able to just download a binary of velocity-tools.jar and use only those
> classes which interest them.  If they don't use classes dependent on
> servlet.jar or struts.jar, then they don't need those jars.
> 
> 2.  Those wishing to compile, then use just tools/tools will have to muck
> around with servlet.jar and struts.jar and whatnot.
> 
> Counter:  For those checking out the project source and compiling it, we
> already include servlet.jar and struts.jar in CVS.  They needn't do 
anything
> but check out the module and compile it.  Furthermore, if people really 
only
> want to compile the tools/tools or tools/view classes, then we can 
carefully
> choosing the package/paths of those files and add Ant targets to 
compile/jar
> only those classes.  If that's what it takes, I'll put in the work for that
> myself.  My plan for the paths is (in order of dependency):
>   generic tools - org.apache.velocity.tools.generic.*
>   ViewTool tools - org.apache.velocity.tools.view.tools.*
>   struts tools - org.apache.velocity.tools.struts.*
> 
> 3.  It's theoretically better to have separate places for non-view tools 
and
> struts tools.  Doesn't that just make sense?
> 
> Counter:  Theoretical is nice, but practical makes people happier.  In 
other
> words, is it really better to cave to the "needs" or "desires" of some
> imagined theoretical users, or the interests of the active developers and
> contributers?  Remember, so far no user is able to compile tools/tools
> independent of tools/view because of the misplaced ParameterParser and NO
> ONE has complained about that!
> 
> 4. Why change the status quo?  We don't want to break backwards
> compatibility.
> 
> Counter:  We've released nothing so far.  We don't presently distribute
> binaries or have any real official documentation on the current state of
> things out there.  We have absolutely no compunction to keep things B.C.
> yet.
> 
> ----------
> and now comes the pathetic begging....
> 
> please support me in this!!!
> please, please, please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top!!!!
> 
> :)
> 
> Nathan Bubna
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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