To all those interested in 'Cree': The site is www.flyanglersonline with an 's'.
I read the article and although I like Dennis, he would do well to visit Whiting Farms. Dr. Tom Whiting has his doctorate in poultry genetics and does know what he's talking about. I've been there on a number of occasions and his operation is almost staggering in its scale. We're talking hundreds of thousands of birds, and that doesn't include his back-up ranches. So he's an expert, Phd, and breeder on the largest scale on the planet. That's gotta carry some weight. Cree 'genes' are very recessive, since they come from mixed colors. Cree does not even breed through- it's a dead end. To have one just pop up in the ranks is entirely possible, due to genes doing what they do- even from many generations in the past. But as Dennis is finding out, purposely breeding cree is the only way to do it. But the live rooster he's showing is not a cree, but a ginger with bar-ginger saddles. The pelts look more cree in coloration, but the hackling for dry flies is scanty at best. But he is just starting, as he admits. I disagree with him totally on what he says about there not being real standards for cree, and that 'no one really knows'. This is just a breeder seeking to set his own standard for what he calls cree and what he breeds for. All of the other hackle manufacturers know exactly what correct cree is, and they are in agreement. A cree feather is black, ginger, and cream (the war-paint scheme of the Cree Indians) in bars that extend from one side of the feather to the other. (Some feathers are partially brown, turning to full cree, then maybe back again. This is due to the strength of the brown genes overriding the new codes.) When cree is splayed, each barb should have all three colors on them, as they cross the bars diagonally in their natural position. This is standard cree coloration. Metz has been producing cree for decades, as have the others. Any oldtimer can pick out real cree off of a wall. I was shown how to ID good cree 25 years ago by a shop owner, so it's been around a long time, even before me. The photos of what DC shows for cree birds are generally more variants and the actual tying feathers are huge. They do make me appreciate the Whiting birds even more, considering the hackle size, length, and quantity- let alone color. I'm not trying to be hard on Dennis, but his roosters are about 2 decades behind Tom's, judging by the pelts in the photographs. Look closely at the photographs for the amount of feathers you would have to tie size 10 through 16 dries. You be the judge. I was tying tonight with a Whiting Cree "Midge" Supersaddle - size 22 - 28 Adams, with feathers 10-12" long and perfect the entire length. The Gold Cree regular Super-saddle that I have will tie thousands of flies in the 10 through 18 size range. Look at the feathers in the article and then go to Whiting Farms' web site and do your own comparison. Tom is producing many hundreds of crees yearly, (besides hundreds of thousands of others)but also has to supply hundreds of fly shops, so cree is still 'rare' in that regard. His Signature Platinum grade Cree Supersaddles would make you drool, or worse. And if DC is actually going to charge what he says he is for his cree skins, I would pick a Bronze Whiting cree saddle and tie about 100 times as many dries as his neck and saddle together will tie in the 12 to 16 size range, again, judging only from the photographs that he posted. (And yes, I wouldn't get the lifetime supply of grizzly soft hackles that are on the whole bird. ) If you want full skins with tons of all kinds of feathers, DC's whole birds may be a good buy. I'm just telling what I know from 40 years of tying, and the last 22 of those being pretty intense. I've watched the Hoffman dry-fly saddles come along from scroungy to useable to pretty cool to great. Since Whiting took over, the only adjectives that fit are awesome, incredible, and phenominal, as the genetics improve. He also owns the Hebert line and the American line, pedigreed genepools of decades of controlled breeding. What's he accomplished in the upgrading of necks and saddles is decades beyond the rest of the pack. I didn't intend for this to be another epistle, but I know from personal experience the difference between what there was to tie with decades ago and what Whiting offers now. And I wanted to set the record straight for the benefit of all the vfb'ers. So it's just me rambling on again...sorry. I'll quit now. DonO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Sexton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [VFB] Dry Flies 101-reply > John, > > There is a really good article this week, written by Dennis Conrad, about > his experience breeding for cree hackle. > > It is found on www.flyangleronline.com > > Chad > ----- Original Message -----
