very interesting ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Ordes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [VFB] Dry Flies 101-reply- Cree
> To all those interested in 'Cree': > > The site is www.flyanglersonline with an 's'. > > I read the article and although I like Dennis, he would do well to visit > Whiting Farms. > > Dr. Tom Whiting has his doctorate in poultry genetics and does know what > he's talking about. > I've been there on a number of occasions and his operation is almost > staggering in its scale. > We're talking hundreds of thousands of birds, and that doesn't include his > back-up ranches. > So he's an expert, Phd, and breeder on the largest scale on the planet. > That's gotta carry some weight. > > Cree 'genes' are very recessive, since they come from mixed colors. Cree > does not even breed through- it's a dead end. To have one just pop up in > the ranks is entirely possible, due to genes doing what they do- even from > many generations in the past. But as Dennis is finding out, purposely > breeding cree is the only way to do it. But the live rooster he's showing > is not a cree, but a ginger with bar-ginger saddles. The pelts look more > cree in coloration, but the hackling for dry flies is scanty at best. But > he is just starting, as he admits. > > I disagree with him totally on what he says about there not being real > standards for cree, and that 'no one really knows'. This is just a breeder > seeking to set his own standard for what he calls cree and what he breeds > for. All of the other hackle manufacturers know exactly what correct cree > is, and they are in agreement. A cree feather is black, ginger, and cream > (the war-paint scheme of the Cree Indians) in bars that extend from one side > of the feather to the other. (Some feathers are partially brown, turning to > full cree, then maybe back again. This is due to the strength of the brown > genes overriding the new codes.) When cree is splayed, each barb should > have all three colors on them, as they cross the bars diagonally in their > natural position. This is standard cree coloration. Metz has been > producing cree for decades, as have the others. Any oldtimer can pick out > real cree off of a wall. I was shown how to ID good cree 25 years ago by a > shop owner, so it's been around a long time, even before me. > > The photos of what DC shows for cree birds are generally more variants and > the actual tying feathers are huge. They do make me appreciate the Whiting > birds even more, considering the hackle size, length, and quantity- let > alone color. > > I'm not trying to be hard on Dennis, but his roosters are about 2 decades > behind Tom's, judging by the pelts in the photographs. Look closely at the > photographs for the amount of feathers you would have to tie size 10 through > 16 dries. You be the judge. > > I was tying tonight with a Whiting Cree "Midge" Supersaddle - size 22 - 28 > Adams, with feathers 10-12" long and perfect the entire length. The Gold > Cree regular Super-saddle that I have will tie thousands of flies in the 10 > through 18 size range. Look at the feathers in the article and then go to > Whiting Farms' web site and do your own comparison. > > Tom is producing many hundreds of crees yearly, (besides hundreds of > thousands of others)but also has to supply hundreds of fly shops, so cree is > still 'rare' in that regard. His Signature Platinum grade Cree Supersaddles > would make you drool, or worse. > > And if DC is actually going to charge what he says he is for his cree skins, > I would pick a Bronze Whiting cree saddle and tie about 100 times as many > dries as his neck and saddle together will tie in the 12 to 16 size range, > again, judging only from the photographs that he posted. (And yes, I > wouldn't get the lifetime supply of grizzly soft hackles that are on the > whole bird. ) > > If you want full skins with tons of all kinds of feathers, DC's whole birds > may be a good buy. > I'm just telling what I know from 40 years of tying, and the last 22 of > those being pretty intense. I've watched the Hoffman dry-fly saddles come > along from scroungy to useable to pretty cool to great. Since Whiting took > over, the only adjectives that fit are awesome, incredible, and phenominal, > as the genetics improve. He also owns the Hebert line and the American > line, pedigreed genepools of decades of controlled breeding. What's he > accomplished in the upgrading of necks and saddles is decades beyond the > rest of the pack. > > I didn't intend for this to be another epistle, but I know from personal > experience the difference between what there was to tie with decades ago and > what Whiting offers now. And I wanted to set the record straight for the > benefit of all the vfb'ers. > > So it's just me rambling on again...sorry. I'll quit now. > > DonO > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chad Sexton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:39 PM > Subject: Re: [VFB] Dry Flies 101-reply > > > > John, > > > > There is a really good article this week, written by Dennis Conrad, about > > his experience breeding for cree hackle. > > > > It is found on www.flyangleronline.com > > > > Chad > > ----- Original Message ----- >
