I think we can all agree that the economy, whether on a global scale or
on a smaller scale such as the one we're currently discussing, is not a
zero-sum game.   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:28 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [videoblogging] Re: MyHeavy and Magnify and 
> aggregators in general
> 
> Lucas, I did not, nor did anyone participating in this 
> discussion make the argument that a third party's profit is 
> necessarily someone else's loss.  No one said any such thing. 
>  What many people are saying is that they don't want others, 
> with most of the emphasis on corporations, profiting from 
> their work without their permission or some compensation.  
> Metaphors and analogies about neighbors painting houses 
> really don't change the basic formula, which is: you make it, 
> you own it, you get to decide what to do with it and what 
> gets done with it.  Property rights are an axiom of western 
> civilization.  They are an axiom of our legal system and our 
> economic system too.  A thicket of what-if scenarios 
> notwithstanding, that's the state of things right now.  
> Here's the good news: if you want to share your work or give 
> it away, you can do that too.  The irony is that many of us 
> coming on all William F. Buckley on this issue are really no 
> such thing.  But the confusion is rampant.  Or is this all 
> just a big argument for the sake of argument?  If that's the 
> case then I'm done.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> --- In [email protected], "Lucas Gonze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/27/07, Steve Watkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Im not sure Id agree that a sense of victimization or righteous
> anger
> > > are the primary driving forces behind such things, but they are
> in the
> > > mix somewhere when it comes to reactions of music etc industry.
> > 
> > When somebody  makes the argument that the profit of a third party
> is
> > necessarily their loss, they are arguing from victimization.
> > 
> > Let's say you argue that aggregated creators deserve a share of the 
> > profits of an aggregator.  That doesn't follow from economics.  The 
> > economic point of view is that investors in the aggregator, its 
> > owners, are the ones who deserve a share of the profits, because
> they
> > also stood to lose money if it lost money.
> > 
> > When I buy a house for $X, I stand to lose $X and also 
> stand to gain 
> > whatever I can sell it for above $X.  If the value of my house goes
> up
> > because my neighbor painted and fixed up their own place, my
> neighbor
> > has no claim to my profit.
> > 
> > There are people who read my blog in Bloglines, for example, but I 
> > make no claim to Bloglines' revenues.  If Bloglines goes out of 
> > business I lose nothing, so why should I stand to gain if it makes 
> > money?  Ditto videoblogs and video aggregrators.
> > 
> > Ask yourself this: if MyHeavy goes out of business, what does it
> cost
> > you?  And how do you know whether they are even making a profit
> right
> > now?  (I doubt they are).  The reality is that you don't know or
> care
> > whether they exist, much less whether they are profitable.  
> The only 
> > thing that matters to you is whether *you* are profitable.
> > 
> > People in the music business made the same bogus argument over and 
> > over again in reaction to third parties who benefit from their work.
> > If somebody sings my song at a birthday party and everybody has fun 
> > because of that, don't I deserve a few bucks?  If my song
> accidentally
> > ends up in the background of a scene in a documentary, don't I get 
> > paid?  If an Elvis impersonator lands a good gig in Vegas, doesn't
> the
> > Presley estate get a cut?
> > 
> > So that's my case that the sense of righteous anger is misplaced.  
> Now
> > for the issue of victimization -- why do I say this anger flows
> from a
> > misplaced sense of victimization?
> > 
> > The value of my house goes up because my neighbor painted and fixed
> up
> > their own place.  Do they deserve a cut?  Why shouldn't they get a 
> > share, since it was their work?  Their improvements weren't cheap 
> > either!  I mean, they slaved on their fixup every weekend, they put
> a
> > ton of money into the painters, they took a day off from work to
> get a
> > construction permit -- where do I get off making a fortune off
> them!?
> > 
> > But hold on, there's another way of looking at it.  My benefit is a 
> > positive externality.  Per Wikipedia at 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality, 'an externality is a cost
> or
> > benefit from an economic transaction that parties "external" to the
> > transaction receive.'   Just so for remixers and aggregators and all
> > the other third parties, whether street people or rich 
> corporations, 
> > who benefit from the labor and investment of a videoblogger.
> > 
> > What matters has nothing to do with the benefit of third parties.  
> It
> > has to do with the health of the videoblogger.  If you got what you 
> > wanted out of your vlog, who cares whether other people benefitted 
> > too?  Did you have fun?  Did you make friends?  Did you make
> something
> > beautiful and worthwhile?  If so, keep doing it.  If not, quit.  
> There
> > is no need for my neighbor to get a share of my profit if their 
> > intention was to live in a better home.
> > 
> > Our work on CCMixter.org made it possible for remixers in the 
> > community to do stuff they couldn't have done otherwise.  Ok, they 
> > lost the potential to earn money from people who sampled them, but 
> > they wouldn't have created those samples if they weren't able to 
> > sample others in the first place.  Whatever they might have 
> lost was 
> > something they wouldn't have had in the first place.  As Rox says, 
> > "from way out there it all belongs to all of us. We are the 
> > messengers."
> > 
> > So that's the arguing from victimization thing.  It's an argument
> that
> > doesn't flow from economics, just from a sense of entitlement.
> > 
> > > What a totally different attitude we might have to all forms of 
> > > ownership, rights, control, freedom of all creative works, ideas,
> and
> > > reuse, if we lived in some totally different world where
> everybody did
> > > a practical job such as farming during the first part of the day,
> and
> > > then returned home to converse, create, remix and redeploy,
> entertain
> > > , amuse and educate fellow humans during the afternoon & evening.
> > 
> > As a musician, I have no desire to do it for a living.  I really do 
> > prefer to do it on the side.  It makes me happy to play in the
> morning
> > before I go to work, and that's all I need.
> > 
> > -Lucas
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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