you have misinterpreted, mike. possibly my fault as my writing may not have been clear in its seperation of acceptable business practice.
of course aggregation services are good. i wouldnt have created a videoblog directory if i thought otherwise. i believe you probably were disagreeing with my second paragraph. i removed "and to let" and replaced with 'IF SUCH'. which is my point... not to let companies benefit from violating a creators intentions when they ignore a the media's usage license. nomatter how you slice it, creators can't let business plans > that are largely based on profitting from the vast amount of > "available" works on the internet to be deemed legit IF SUCH commercial > entities abuse the licenses that were attached to these works without > proper permission. sull On 1/29/07, Mike Hudack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I agree with Lucas on this one, sull, at least insomuch as I disagree > with you. Businesses should be absolutely free to add value to the > media landscape by aggregating media into single locations and thereby > adding value that wasn't previously there. To my mind the issue is more > about the level of control that content creators have over their own > works when businesses come in and do that, not whether such things are > good (I believe they are in fact good). > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] <videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:[email protected] <videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com>] > On Behalf Of sull > > Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 10:28 PM > > To: [email protected] <videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: MyHeavy and Magnify and > > aggregators in general > > > > Your 'nothing lost, nothing gained' argument is an > > interesting injection here but i do feel it is besides the > > point of the issue that matters most within this > > discussion... which is about those who are the owners of > > intellectual/creative property that are licensed and made > > available non-commercially etc. > > > > No matter how you slice it, creators can't let business plans > > that are largely based on profitting from the vast amount of > > "available" works on the internet to be deemed legit and to > > let commercial entities abuse the licenses that were attached > > to these works without proper permission. > > Period. That has nothing to do with breaking the web or > > passive benefits/fair use of content... which is a related > > but seperate issue. > > > > sull > > > > On 1/28/07, Lucas Gonze <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <lucas.gonze%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > On 1/27/07, Steve Watkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <steve%40dvmachine.com> > > > <steve%40dvmachine.com>> > > > > wrote: > > > > Im not sure Id agree that a sense of victimization or righteous > > > > anger are the primary driving forces behind such things, but they > > > > are in the mix somewhere when it comes to reactions of > > music etc industry. > > > > > > When somebody makes the argument that the profit of a third > > party is > > > necessarily their loss, they are arguing from victimization. > > > > > > Let's say you argue that aggregated creators deserve a share of the > > > profits of an aggregator. That doesn't follow from economics. The > > > economic point of view is that investors in the aggregator, its > > > owners, are the ones who deserve a share of the profits, > > because they > > > also stood to lose money if it lost money. > > > > > > When I buy a house for $X, I stand to lose $X and also > > stand to gain > > > whatever I can sell it for above $X. If the value of my > > house goes up > > > because my neighbor painted and fixed up their own place, > > my neighbor > > > has no claim to my profit. > > > > > > There are people who read my blog in Bloglines, for example, but I > > > make no claim to Bloglines' revenues. If Bloglines goes out of > > > business I lose nothing, so why should I stand to gain if it makes > > > money? Ditto videoblogs and video aggregrators. > > > > > > Ask yourself this: if MyHeavy goes out of business, what > > does it cost > > > you? And how do you know whether they are even making a > > profit right > > > now? (I doubt they are). The reality is that you don't know or care > > > whether they exist, much less whether they are profitable. The only > > > thing that matters to you is whether *you* are profitable. > > > > > > People in the music business made the same bogus argument over and > > > over again in reaction to third parties who benefit from their work. > > > If somebody sings my song at a birthday party and everybody has fun > > > because of that, don't I deserve a few bucks? If my song > > accidentally > > > ends up in the background of a scene in a documentary, don't I get > > > paid? If an Elvis impersonator lands a good gig in Vegas, > > doesn't the > > > Presley estate get a cut? > > > > > > So that's my case that the sense of righteous anger is > > misplaced. Now > > > for the issue of victimization -- why do I say this anger > > flows from a > > > misplaced sense of victimization? > > > > > > The value of my house goes up because my neighbor painted > > and fixed up > > > their own place. Do they deserve a cut? Why shouldn't they get a > > > share, since it was their work? Their improvements weren't cheap > > > either! I mean, they slaved on their fixup every weekend, > > they put a > > > ton of money into the painters, they took a day off from > > work to get a > > > construction permit -- where do I get off making a fortune > > off them!? > > > > > > But hold on, there's another way of looking at it. My benefit is a > > > positive externality. Per Wikipedia at > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality, 'an externality > > is a cost or > > > benefit from an economic transaction that parties "external" to the > > > transaction receive.' Just so for remixers and aggregators > > and all the > > > other third parties, whether street people or rich > > corporations, who > > > benefit from the labor and investment of a videoblogger. > > > > > > What matters has nothing to do with the benefit of third > > parties. It > > > has to do with the health of the videoblogger. If you got what you > > > wanted out of your vlog, who cares whether other people benefitted > > > too? Did you have fun? Did you make friends? Did you make something > > > beautiful and worthwhile? If so, keep doing it. If not, > > quit. There is > > > no need for my neighbor to get a share of my profit if > > their intention > > > was to live in a better home. > > > > > > Our work on CCMixter.org made it possible for remixers in the > > > community to do stuff they couldn't have done otherwise. > > Ok, they lost > > > the potential to earn money from people who sampled them, but they > > > wouldn't have created those samples if they weren't able to sample > > > others in the first place. Whatever they might have lost > > was something > > > they wouldn't have had in the first place. As Rox says, > > "from way out > > > there it all belongs to all of us. We are the messengers." > > > > > > So that's the arguing from victimization thing. It's an > > argument that > > > doesn't flow from economics, just from a sense of entitlement. > > > > > > > What a totally different attitude we might have to all forms of > > > > ownership, rights, control, freedom of all creative works, ideas, > > > > and reuse, if we lived in some totally different world where > > > > everybody did a practical job such as farming during the > > first part > > > > of the day, and then returned home to converse, create, remix and > > > > redeploy, entertain , amuse and educate fellow humans > > during the afternoon & evening. > > > > > > As a musician, I have no desire to do it for a living. I really do > > > prefer to do it on the side. It makes me happy to play in > > the morning > > > before I go to work, and that's all I need. > > > > > > -Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sull > > http://vlogdir.com (a project) > > http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) > > http://interdigitate.com (otherly) > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- Sull http://vlogdir.com (a project) http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) http://interdigitate.com (otherly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
