From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008, 2:14 PM
Well - if you find it - do let us know!
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
Thanks
As said, I have a copy of the pattern somewhere - just have
to find it!
I have however now found the FoMRHI article which mentions
Strad's
'chitara tiorbata' (by yrs truly): FoMRHI Comm 663
October 1985 'The
stringing of a baroque guitar'. Unfortunately, my aim
in the paper was to
look at evidence for stringing of the top 5 courses and,
whilst I refer to
Strad's records of the theorboed instrument, I only
quote his remarks on the
first 10 strings (ie 5 courses) and none on the basses.
MH
--- On Tue, 9/9/08, Monica Hall
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: "Vihuelalist"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 8:47 PM
> The information comes from
>
> Sacconi, Simone F., The secrets of Stradivari (Cremona
:
> Libreria del
> Convegno, 1979), Item 375, p.228.
>
>
> It's a paper pattern of a neck and fingerboard
320mm
> long by 72 mm and 60
> min width... with a description of the strings and
their
> arrangement at the
> nut. There is a handwritten note on the back by the
sons
> of Strad "Misura
> della Longezza et largezza del manico della chitara
> tiorbata" followed by
> the description of the strings.
>
> I wonder if anyone has seen the paper pattern? Or has
a
> copy of it?
>
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Monica Hall"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist"
> <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
>
>
>
> I'm really not so sure Monica. Whilst it's
> certainly true that whenever
> Strad is mentioned it's generally only the five
courses
> which are of
> interest and so are the only ones referred to, But I
have
> this nagging
> memory that in fact he describes theorboed guitar
> stringing. Indeed I also
> recall FoMRHI had relevant articles in mid/late 70s -
I
> must look.
>
> I've been to my stack (ie loft) to find the
> articles/facsimile but no luck
> so far in the piles of misc paper - I will
persevere...
>
> Another who thinks the basses are at the upper octave
is
> Tyler ( 'the
> guitar... OUP 2002) page 74 Footnote 51 where he
describes
> Granata's
> theorboed guitar as having seven 'unfingered
basses
> tuned daitonically down
> to a A at the bottom of the bass clef' ie down to
A as
> I suggest and not to
> A,. Of course Tyler is not always reliable , but.....
> Sources requiring
> the same instruments are listed as Granata 1659, the
De
> Gallot Ms, I-NC Ms
> (have you got this?) and Bob Spencer's sonata for
> 'chitarrone francese'.
>
> Of course, by the mid 18th century the various types
of
> arch citterns and
> arch guitars introduced as novelties could use heavy
> overwound strings and
> be strung down to A,. But, as said earlier, I really
> can't see getting a
> satisfactory sound from a gut string c. 116cm at A,.
>
> MH
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Monica Hall
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist"
> <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 4:35 PM
> > Stradivarius describes the strings on the
fingerboard
> and
> > the 4th and 5th
> > courses are octave strung.
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think he describes the open courses.
> >
> >
> >
> > Monica
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > First & second strings: These must be like
two
> guitar
> > first strings
> > (cantini)
> >
> > Third & fourth strings:These must
be
> like
> > two guitar second
> > strings (sotanelle)
> >
> > Fifth & sixth strings: These must be
like two
> > thick violin first
> > strings (cantini)
> >
> > Seventh string: This must be a
violin
> second
> > string (canto)
> >
> > Eighth string: This must be a
guitar
> second
> > string
> > (sotanella)
> >
> > Ninth string: This must be the thickest
possible
> > violin second string
> > (canto)
> >
> > Tenth string: This must be a
violin
> first
> > string (cantino)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Rob MacKillop"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: "Vihuela"
> <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:21 PM
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: arch-guitar
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, indeed, they would double some of the
fingered
> strings
> > but that, I
> > think, is the point: you can play an open bass
whilst
> > fingering a string
> > (even though the same open pitch) - the same
advantage
> > indeed as the late Dm
> > lute of course ie not so much/or only to get
lower
> notes
> > but to free the
> > left hand.
> >
> > I mention all this because I recall an early
source
> (may be
> > Strad's arch
> > guitar) gives higher octave stringing (I
can't lay
> my
> > hands on the paperwork
> > at the present but will dig out in due course.
> >
> > Monica may know what I'm on about.......
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> >
> > --- On Tue, 9/9/08, Rob MacKillop
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Rob MacKillop
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: arch-guitar
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Cc: "Vihuela"
> > <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date: Tuesday, 9 September, 2008, 3:07 PM
> > > The string length of the basses is c.116cms.
I
> say
> > > 'circa' because I
> > > couldn't find a tape measure, so
ended up
> using
> > a
> > > six-inch ruler...
> > >
> > > The Granata Sarbande and Corrente do not
have
> > passages
> > > that would
> > > suggest anything other than GFEDCBA. In
the
> tuning
> > you
> > > mention, Martyn,
> > > (gfedcBA) does not the g double the open
third
> > course,
> > > and likewise the
> > > d with the fourth course? I can't see
any
> > allowances
> > > for that in the
> > > scores.
> > >
> > > The Sarabande is difficult to play
without
> laughing
> > -
> > > the first seven
> > > bass notes (tasto) chime out
Prokofiev's
> Hall
> > of the
> > > Mountain King (if
> > > that's the correct title) from
Pictures at
> an
> > > Exhibition... This music
> > > is difficult to play! I wish I hadn't
> promised
> > a
> > > video!!
> > >
> > > Rob
> > > 2008/9/8 Martyn Hodgson
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > Rob,
> > > Thanks - interesting: there's a
thought
> that
> > the
> > > 'basses' could have
> > > been at the upper octave rather than
the
> lower as
> > you
> > > indicate. In
> > > short, descending from the 5th course
string
> > plucked
> > > first by the
> > > thumb (ie from the a downwards g f e d
c B A
> and
> > not
> > > G F E D C B,
> > > A, as you say it's now strung.
> What's
> > the
> > > string length of the
> > > basses? I would have thought it needed
to be
> > around
> > > 160cm to get a
> > > reasonable sound from a plain gut low
A,
> string
> > but
> > > I'm not sure
> > > that any theorboed guitar had basses so
very
> > long.
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 8/9/08, Rob MacKillop
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > From: Rob MacKillop
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] arch-guitar
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Cc: "Vihuela"
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Date: Monday, 8 September, 2008,
10:25
> AM
> > >
> > > > It has diapasons on the fourth and
fifth,
> on
> > the
> > > finger
> > > > side, high octave on
> > > > the thumb side. Then it has single
bass
> > strings
> > > descending
> > > > from G to low A,
> > > > then it leaps up for a g# and an f#.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if it 'works
for
> me'
> > - not
> > > sure
> > > > what that means. Seems to fit
> > > > the music by Granata OK.
> > > >
> > > > Wolfgang has made the lower nut wide
> enough to
> > fit
> > > a sixth
> > > > course for
> > > > archlute tuning in E or F. I
won't
> have
> > time to
> > > explore
> > > > that, however.
> > > >
> > > > Rob
> > > >
> > > > 2008/9/8 Martyn Hodgson
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >
> > > > > Rob,
> > > > >
> > > > > Are the basses at the upper
octave
> and
> > does
> > > this work
> > > > for you?
> > > > >
> > > > > Martyn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Sun, 7/9/08, Rob
MacKillop
> > > >
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: Rob MacKillop
> > > >
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > Subject: [VIHUELA]
arch-guitar
> > > > > > To: "Vihuela"
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > Date: Sunday, 7 September,
> 2008,
> > 11:23 PM
> > > > > > Just received the
arch-guitar
> from
> > > Wolfgand
> > > > Emmerich. I have
> > > > > > one week
> > > > > > to master it (!) before
he
> takes
> > it
> > > back to
> > > > Germany. It
> > > > > > is a well-made
> > > > > > instrument, but
everytime I
> try
> > to
> > > play
> > > > something, I
> > > > > > can't help
> > > > > > thinking I am in
archlute
> tuning.
> > I
> > > have some
> > > > Gallot -
> > > > > > but that is in a
> > > > > > weird tuning requiring
a
> change
> > of
> > > strings, so
> > > > will give
> > > > > > it a miss. I
> > > > > > also have some Granata,
so I
> hope
> > to
> > > record
> > > > that before
> > > > > > Saturday, maybe
> > > > > > a video, we'll see.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To get on or off this list
see
> list
> > > information
> > > > at
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 4. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 5. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > > 6. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 7. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 8. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 9. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > > 10.
> > >
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list
information
> at
> > >
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
