Thanks Monica, Yes, we both seem to agree that the chitarra italiana was probably a small instrument.
But why you suppose that Millioni himself thought the 4-course instrument referred to as "il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana" was a small lute rather than a small guitar is not clear. I'm aware of the Vocabolario della Crusca reference. But the parallel in uncertainty may be likened to how the English called the small guitar a gittern, which for many years contributed to a mistaken identification. Perhaps 'chitarrino' could mean a small lute or a small guitar in Italy? Do you think the name 'chitarra' always needs the qualifier 'spagnola' before we can think an instrument is the larger 5 course guitar? But before getting too bogged down, the earlier question was whether the chitarra spagnola might be included as a continuo instrument, even by Agazzari. You'll know 'Le stravaganze d'amore' of Corradi (Venice 1616). This is an early 17thcentury source from a Northern Italian source and comprises songs for 'uni, due et tre voci' with alfabeto for the 'Chitarra alla Spagnola' as well as tablature for 'Chitarrone'. This source shows that this chitarra spagnola was tuned in a nominal e' top course ie the larger instrument. Since it is only a few years after Agazzari it certainly suggests that the instrument was at least a possibility to be included in his 'etcetera' of basso continuo instruments even at such a relatively early date. Martyn --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 17:24 Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other things which I think need to be clarified. The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course instrument is referred to as "il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana" which suggests that it was a small lute rather than a 4-course guitar. Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the Chitarra as "a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano". He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra Italiana was a small lute. Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola and the chitarra napolitana. Stuart mentioned Calvi's book. The pieces in tablature are preceded by the note "Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia, ma sono veramente per la Chitarra". Although Meucci doesn't mention this instance it seems to me that the "Chitarra" here is also a small lute. The music is quite different from other music for 5-course instrument. No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either. You can't assume that the term "chitarra" refers to the 5-course guitar. As ever Monica Original Message ----- From: "Monica Hall" <[1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar > [was Re: Capona?]} > >> a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan >> publication). > > The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least according to > Meucci. Cerreto actually describes it as "lo Strumento della Chitarra a > sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana". It is a 4-course instrument > with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa che in > esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento del Liuto". > He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed. > > Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was describing > was probably the same as the Chitarrina alla Napoletana called for in the > Intermedia i.e. a small lute. The chitarrina alla spagnola was > probably the 5-course Spanish guitar. In 1689 these instruments had to be > imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not in common > use in northern Italy. > > Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the "Lauten" and > "Quintern"; > the quintern is a small lute. > > Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for a 4-course instrument > are also probably for a "Chitarrina alla Napoletana" - they are notated in > "Spanish" tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course. > > You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things called > Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars. Unfortunately James Tyler > hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the 4-course > guitar isn't very helpful. > > Monica > >> --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall <[4][4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: >> >> From: Monica Hall <[5][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari >> guitar [was Re: Capona?]} >> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex Eisenhardt" >> <[8][8]eisenha...@planet.nl>, "R. Mattes" <[9][9]r...@mh-freiburg.de> >> Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49 >> >> We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have. >> Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one >> year >> after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in >> about >> 1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was >> printed >> in 1640. >> I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the >> chitarra >> spagnuola and had it in mind >> when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the >> instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I >> can't >> see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a >> small >> lute? >> Monica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; >> <[3][12]eisen...@planet.nl>; "R. >> Mattes" <[4][13]r...@mh-freiburg.de> >> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari >> guitar >> [was Re: Capona?]} >> > >> > >> > Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider: >> 'albeit >> > later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are >> not >> > contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they >> do >> > not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is >> that >> > plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early >> (Foscarini) >> > and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available >> evidence >> > to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he >> allowed >> > the guitar in basso continuo....... >> > >> > MH >> > >> > --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes <[5][14]r...@mh-freiburg.de> wrote: >> > >> > From: R. Mattes <[6][15]r...@mh-freiburg.de> >> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: >> Agazzari >> > guitar [was Re: Capona?]} >> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][16]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, >> "Vihuelalist" >> > <[8][17]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, [9][18]eisen...@planet.nl >> > Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44 >> > >> > On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote >> > > Thanks Lex >> > > >> > > Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar >> was >> > > not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not >> > > convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC >> using >> > > full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some, >> > > allbeit later, sources >> > > (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing >> > > guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style. >> > Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources >> > for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like >> > using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann >> > Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ... >> > Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early >> baroque >> > continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more >> careful >> > in what sources we draw our information from. >> > Cheers, Ralf Mattes >> > > Corbetta in >> > > his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly >> > > restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed >> chord. >> > > >> > > Martyn >> > > >> > > --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1][10][19]eisen...@planet.nl >> > <[2][11][20]eisen...@planet.nl> wrote: >> > > >> > > From: [3][12][21]eisen...@planet.nl <[4][13][22]eisen...@planet.nl> >> > > Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] >> Re: >> > > Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]} >> > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5][14][23]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, >> > "Vihuelalist" >> > > <[6][15][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> > > Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55 >> > > >> > > Hi, >> > > I'm not so sure about the 'etc.' >> > > It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint, >> the >> > > way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In >> the >> > > end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of >> the >> > > guitar >> > > (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked >> chitarrina >> > could >> > > be one of the melodic instruments on his list. >> > > Lex >> > > >> > __________________________________________________________________ >> > > >> > > Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[7][16][25]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] >> > > Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24 >> > > Aan: Vihuelalist; [8][17][26]eisen...@planet.nl >> > > Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re: >> > Agazzari >> > > guitar [was Re: Capona?]} >> > > Thanks Lex. >> > > >> > > Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure >> > > terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw >> > > unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether >> Agazzari >> > > had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or >> the >> > > instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open. >> > > >> > > But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi >> purposefully >> > omit >> > > the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as >> suitable >> > > for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I >> > > suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst >> those >> > > suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for >> > > continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out). >> > > However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and >> > > thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo >> > groupings...... >> > > >> > > regards >> > > >> > > Martyn >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > To get on or off this list see list information at >> > > [9][18][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > -- >> > R. Mattes - >> > Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg >> > [10][19][28]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de >> > >> > -- >> > >> > References >> > >> > 1. >> [20][29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> > 2. >> [21][30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> > 3. >> [22][31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> > 4. >> [23][32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> > 5. >> > >> [24][33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@y ahoo.co >> .uk >> > 6. >> [25][34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dart mouth.e >> du >> > 7. >> > >> [26][35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@y ahoo.co >> .uk >> > 8. >> [27][36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> > 9. [28][37]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > 10. >> [29][38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freib urg.de >> > >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. >> [10][39]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@y ahoo.co .uk >> 2. [11][40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dart mouth.e du >> 3. [12][41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 4. [13][42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rm@mh-freiburg. de >> 5. [14][43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rm@mh-freiburg. de >> 6. [15][44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rm@mh-freiburg. de >> 7. >> [16][45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@y ahoo.co .uk >> 8. [17][46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dart mouth.e du >> 9. [18][47]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 10. [19][48]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 11. [20][49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 12. [21][50]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 13. [22][51]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 14. >> [23][52]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@y ahoo.co .uk >> 15. [24][53]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dart mouth.e du >> 16. >> [25][54]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@y ahoo.co .uk >> 17. [26][55]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 18. [27][56]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 19. [28][57]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freib urg.de >> 20. [29][58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 21. [30][59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen073@planet .nl >> 22. 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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de 29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 31. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 32. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 33. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co 34. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e 35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co 36. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl 37. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 38. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de 39. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co 40. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e 41. 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