Thanks Monica,

   Yes, we both seem to agree that the chitarra italiana was probably a
   small instrument.

   But why you suppose that  Millioni  himself thought the
   4-course  instrument  referred to as "il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra
   Italiana" was a  small lute rather than  a small guitar is not clear.
   I'm aware of the Vocabolario della Crusca reference. But the parallel
   in uncertainty may be likened to how the English called the small
   guitar a gittern,  which for many years contributed to a mistaken
   identification. Perhaps 'chitarrino' could mean a small lute or a small
   guitar in Italy?

   Do you think the name 'chitarra' always needs the qualifier 'spagnola'
   before we can think an instrument is the larger 5 course guitar?

   But before getting too bogged down, the earlier question was whether
   the chitarra spagnola might be included as a continuo instrument, even
   by Agazzari.  You'll know 'Le stravaganze d'amore' of Corradi (Venice
   1616). This is an early 17thcentury source from a Northern Italian
   source and comprises songs for 'uni, due et tre voci' with alfabeto for
   the 'Chitarra alla Spagnola' as well as tablature for 'Chitarrone'.
   This source shows that this chitarra spagnola was tuned in a nominal e'
   top course ie the larger instrument. Since it is only a few years after
   Agazzari it certainly suggests that the instrument was at least a
   possibility to be included in his 'etcetera'  of basso continuo
   instruments even at such a relatively early date.

   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

     From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
     Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
     guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     To: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 17:24

      Having a quick look at Meucci's article again there are a few other
      things which I think need to  be clarified.
      The first of these is that in Millioni's 1631 book the 4-course
      instrument is referred to as   "il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra
   Italiana" which suggests that it was a  small lute rather than  a
   4-course guitar.
      Meucci points out that the first edition of the contemporary Italian
      dictionary Vocabolario della Crusca printed in 1612 defines the
      Chitarra as "a kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano".
      He gives a lot of other examples where it is clear that the Chitarra
      Italiana was a small lute.
      Giustiniani also distinguishes between the chitarra alla spagnola
   and
      the chitarra napolitana.
      Stuart mentioned Calvi's book.   The pieces in tablature are
   preceded
      by the note "Le seguenti Suonate servire anche per la chitarriglia,
   ma
      sono veramente per la Chitarra".   Although Meucci doesn't mention
   this
      instance it seems to me that the "Chitarra" here is also a small
      lute.   The music is quite different from other music for 5-course
      instrument.   No strummed chords and no 6/4 chords either.
      You can't assume that the term "chitarra" refers to the 5-course
      guitar.

      As ever
      Monica
      Original Message -----
      From: "Monica Hall" <[1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
      To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[2][2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
      Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
      Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:02 PM
      Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
      guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
      >
      > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
   Agazzari
      guitar
      > [was Re: Capona?]}
      >
      >>   a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601
      Neapolitan
      >>   publication).
      >
      > The instrument described by Cerreto is not a guitar - at least
      according to
      > Meucci.   Cerreto actually describes it as "lo Strumento della
      Chitarra a
      > sette Corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana".   It is a 4-course
      instrument
      > with a re-entrant tuning which as he says is imperfetto, por causa
      che in
      > esso non vi sono tutte le voci graue como habbiamo nel Strumento
   del
      Liuto".
      > He does however mention that the instrument can be strummed.
      >
      > Cerreto's book was published in Naples and the instrument he was
      describing
      > was probably the same as the Chitarrina  alla Napoletana called
   for
      in the
      > Intermedia i.e. a small lute.   The chitarrina alla spagnola was
      > probably the 5-course Spanish guitar.   In 1689 these instruments
   had
      to be
      > imported to Florence specially which suggests that they were not
   in
      common
      > use in northern Italy.
      >
      > Sebastian Virdung also describes and illustrates the "Lauten" and
      > "Quintern";
      > the quintern is a small lute.
      >
      > Incidentally the four pieces in Barberiis' book for  a 4-course
      instrument
      > are also probably for a "Chitarrina  alla Napoletana" - they are
      notated in
      > "Spanish" tablature i.e. the top line is the highest course.
      >
      > You have to have read Meucci's article to understand why things
      called
      > Chitarra etc. are not necessarily guitars.   Unfortunately James
      Tyler
      > hadn't read Meucci's article and a lot of what he says about the
      4-course
      > guitar isn't very helpful.
      >
      > Monica
      >
      >>   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall <[4][4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
      wrote:
      >>
      >>     From: Monica Hall <[5][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
      >>     Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
      Agazzari
      >>     guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
      >>     To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6][6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
      >>     Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex
      Eisenhardt"
      >>     <[8][8]eisenha...@planet.nl>, "R. Mattes"
   <[9][9]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
      >>     Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
      >>
      >>   We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I
      have.
      >>   Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am
   aware.   Only
      one
      >>   year
      >>   after Montesardo.   Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed
   in
      >>   about
      >>   1630 and the version of which includes the continuo
   instructions
      was
      >>   printed
      >>   in 1640.
      >>   I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was  familiar with
   the
      >>   chitarra
      >>   spagnuola and had it in mind
      >>   when he wrote his book.   And he includes the chitarrina
   amongst
      the
      >>   instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line.
      I
      >>   can't
      >>   see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all.   It was
      surely a
      >>   small
      >>   lute?
      >>   Monica
      >>   ----- Original Message -----
      >>   From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
      >>   To: "Vihuelalist" <[2][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
      >>   <[3][12]eisen...@planet.nl>; "R.
      >>   Mattes" <[4][13]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
      >>   Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
      >>   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
      Agazzari
      >>   guitar
      >>   [was Re: Capona?]}
      >>   >
      >>   >
      >>   >   Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying
   rider:
      >>   'albeit
      >>   >   later sources' expressing that I am well aware these
   sources
      are
      >>   not
      >>   >   contemporary with Agazzari.  And of course you're quite
   right
      they
      >>   do
      >>   >   not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware.  The
   point
      is
      >>   that
      >>   >   plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
      >>   (Foscarini)
      >>   >   and later 17th century so it is not possible on the
   available
      >>   evidence
      >>   >   to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if
   he
      >>   allowed
      >>   >   the guitar in basso continuo.......
      >>   >
      >>   >   MH
      >>   >
      >>   >   --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes <[5][14]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
   wrote:
      >>   >
      >>   >     From: R. Mattes <[6][15]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
      >>   >     Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was
   Re:
      >>   Agazzari
      >>   >     guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
      >>   >     To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][16]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
      >>   "Vihuelalist"
      >>   >     <[8][17]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>,
   [9][18]eisen...@planet.nl
      >>   >     Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44
      >>   >
      >>   >   On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson
   wrote
      >>   >   > Thanks Lex
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the
      guitar
      >>   was
      >>   >   > not   unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm
      not
      >>   >   > convinced we   can interpret his description as excluding
   BC
      >>   using
      >>   >   > full chords only -   eg strummed). Indeed, there are even
      some,
      >>   >   >  allbeit later, sources
      >>   >   >    (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on
      playing
      >>   >   > guitar BC   employing only the plucking (lute) style.
      >>   >   Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable
      sources
      >>   >   for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's
      like
      >>   >   using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for
      Johann
      >>   >   Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
      >>   >   Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from
   early
      >>   baroque
      >>   >   continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit
   more
      >>   careful
      >>   >   in what sources we draw our information from.
      >>   >   Cheers, Ralf Mattes
      >>   >   > Corbetta in
      >>   >   > his intabulated   vocal/instrumental settings is also
   fairly
      >>   >   > restrained: using plucking   play with the occasional
      strummed
      >>   chord.
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    Martyn
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1][10][19]eisen...@planet.nl
      >>   >   <[2][11][20]eisen...@planet.nl> wrote:
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >      From: [3][12][21]eisen...@planet.nl
      <[4][13][22]eisen...@planet.nl>
      >>   >   >      Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
      [VIHUELA]
      >>   Re:
      >>   >   >      Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
      >>   >   >      To: "Martyn Hodgson"
      <[5][14][23]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
      >>   >   "Vihuelalist"
      >>   >   >      <[6][15][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
      >>   >   >      Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    Hi,
      >>   >   >    I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
      >>   >   >    It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of
      counterpoint,
      >>   the
      >>   >   > way   the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in
      easily. In
      >>   the
      >>   >   > end,   there were more composers who were criticizing the
      use of
      >>   the
      >>   >   > guitar
      >>   >   >    (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked
      >>   chitarrina
      >>   >   could
      >>   >   >    be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
      >>   >   >    Lex
      >>   >   >
      >>   >
      __________________________________________________________________
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    Van: Martyn Hodgson
      [mailto:[7][16][25]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
      >>   >   >    Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
      >>   >   >    Aan: Vihuelalist; [8][17][26]eisen...@planet.nl
      >>   >   >    Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
   [VIHUELA]
      Re:
      >>   >   Agazzari
      >>   >   >    guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
      >>   >   >    Thanks Lex.
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just
   not
      sure
      >>   >   >    terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time
   to
      draw
      >>   >   >    unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether
      >>   Agazzari
      >>   >   >    had Millioni's  four-course guitar, 'chitarrino'  in
   mind
      or
      >>   the
      >>   >   >    instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi
      >>   purposefully
      >>   >   omit
      >>   >   >    the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as
      >>   suitable
      >>   >   > for   basso continuo, or is it included in the
   etcetera...?
      I
      >>   >   > suggested that   since he does not list the instrument
      amongst
      >>   those
      >>   >   > suitable for   embellishment then he did think it
   suitable
      for
      >>   >   > continuo (if rarer than   the instruments he did singled
      out).
      >>   >   >  However, I'm certainly not  advocating even more banging
      and
      >>   >   > thrashing about as fashionable amongst   some modern
      continuo
      >>   >   groupings......
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    regards
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    Martyn
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   >    --
      >>   >   >
      >>   >   > To get on or off this list see list information at
      >>   >   >
      [9][18][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
      >>   >   --
      >>   >   R. Mattes -
      >>   >   Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
      >>   >   [10][19][28]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
      >>   >
      >>   >   --
      >>   >
      >>   > References
      >>   >
      >>   >   1.
      >>
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   .nl
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   .nl
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   mouth.e
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   urg.de
      >>   >
      >>
      >>   --
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      > --
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     36.
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     37. [104]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     38.
   [105]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de

   --

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