Hi, thanks all for your thoughts regarding the replacement of a dedicated Braille notetaker with a Braille display and iDevice.
I’m bummed to hear about the Brailliant BI 40. Humanware makes awesome displays, or is it Baum who manufactures their Braille cells? Regardless, the crisp quality is fantastic, and despite their advances in software, it’s a feat HIMS has not been able to match. The problem with the Brailliant is the lack of notetaking support. I need to be able to whip out a display and input data, sometimes in secure environments where Bluetooth and/or wi-fi is not accessible. The Braille Edge seems promising. Cost-wise at $3,000 it’s in the middle of the pack. I much prefer Humanware’s thumb keys to navigate back and forth. I can’t come up with many cons against it come to think of it. The VarioUltra is the next best option, but at $4,000 it’s certainly requiring more of a fascination to justify the expense. It does have notetaking ability and I hear the Braille display quality is superb. If the price weren’t so high... The thought of bypassing iOS and connecting to my Windows ultrabook is another possibility as someone mentioned. Yet, even as small as my ultrabook is, it would still not be as portable as linking up to my phone. I read back over my writing and sound like a whiny brat to myself. Still, it can’t be as difficult as it is to get a good input method down for someone interested in reading Braille! Anyway, thanks guys for entertaining my questions and for your suggestions. Joe -- Musings of a Work in Progress: www.JoeOrozco.com/ Twitter: @ScribblingJoe From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cristóbal Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 3:02 PM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice Somewhat back to the original inquiry, if Braille is such a vital part of the job, and if you’re an experienced Windows based screen reader, then maybe consider looking into one of those windows based tablets. Dell Venue or Toshiba Encore for example. A 2gb model wont’ run you more than $250.00 and probably less if you really hunt for a deal or don’t’ mind going refurbished or used. Apple is great and all, but perhaps in a circumstance like this, for practicle purposes, going for more robust and reliable Braille support may be the way to go. Perhaps use cloud based services in order to have as much synchronicity on Windows and i-devices as well. Perhaps not ideal since you’d be talking about a totally separate device and reliance on Internet access, but there you go. From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hunt Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 11:45 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice Hello Jonnathan. I have two questions for you. 1. When using a focus 40 blue with IOS devices, does the focus ever lock up when you are writing braille? Do you have a 16 32 or 64 bit IOS device? 2. Does Apple have to write drivers for each braille display? What part do the braille display manufacturers play in making sure their devices work with IOS? I'm asking you because you were vice president of Hardware products with Freedom Scientific so your experience here may halp us in our advocacy efforts. As far as the Humanware Firmware update is concerned, it did nothing to resolve the problem of the Brailliant locking up. Thanks so much. Paul From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 7:35 AM To: viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice Hi Paul, I wish I had a better answer other than continuing to write to Apple Accessibility, and putting pressure on via those who make the purchasing decisions about these devices. We have to stand firm and let them know the implementation isn't fit for purpose. You're absolutely on the right track with your diagnosis. If your display is working fine with other solutions such as a laptop, then clearly we're dealing with a driver issue, and Apple writes all the drivers to talk to the various Braille displays. No matter what Braille display we're using, we're going to have the contracted input issues because they're a function of iOS. I think frustration is mounting because people have been pointing out these issues for some years now. One thing that hasn't yet been done, and in my view should be, is an Applevis campaign of the month. I've not seen such a campaign for a while now, but Applevis has gone after third-party developers who've provided a less than optimal experience for VO users. So with something as critical as our very literacy, this is an issue that warrants the site's serious attention in my opinion. Jonathan Mosen, Mosen Consulting Blindness technology information, eBooks and training http://Mosen.org On 21/06/2015, at 11:31 pm, Paul Hunt <prhu...@att.net> wrote: Hello everybody. I would like to make this discussion practical. I have chosen not to purchase a dedicated notetaker when a laptop and screen reader give me more features more timely and at a lower price. Sometimes I don't want to carry a laptop. Since Apple has built braille display support into Voiceover, I expect it to be properly implemented and to work flawlessly. I own a Humanware Brailliant BI 40 and a 16 gig iPhone 5S. I can read all day long but when I write, the BI 40 locks up and by the time I recover I've missed some notes during meetings, etc. I've tried to work with both companies. Instead of solving the problem, they are blaming each other. Since Apple has the resources and controls the environment I expect Apple to take the lead and I expect Humanware to work with Apple to resolve the issue. How can we promptly get their attention when the usual channels of communication don't work? On Jun 21, 2015, at 12:20 AM, Jonathan Mosen <jmo...@mosen.org> wrote: Tara, yet again you are misrepresenting my comments. In saying that Apple has chosen to be a screen reader company, I am not saying they shouldn't have, and I think I made that very clear. Like many people on this list, my life is enriched every day by the fact that Apple has chosen to be a screen reader company. And you can find many books and blog posts I've written, as well as media interviews I've done, where I make this point. I am saying, however, that they should be held to no lesser standard than any other screen reader company. When Apple developed their own Maps app in iOS 6, this made them a navigation company. They blew it, big time, consumers objected, and Apple made a course correction. That's because, quite rightly, consumers held Apple to the same standard that they did other maps providers. Let me reiterate that I don't beleive a notetaker is the best choice in all situations. A good PC or Windows tablet will be far cheaper, and in some cases, far better, for many people. Jonathan Mosen, Mosen Consulting Blindness technology information, eBooks and training http://Mosen.org On 21/06/2015, at 4:19 pm, TaraPrakash <taraprak...@gmail.com> wrote: All the points about the utility of Braille are well taken, Jonathan's concern about survival about Braille, and that those who know Braille are more successful in employment field is also agreeable to me (Even if I am not sure the source of this statistics that Jonathan quoted in his response addressed to me..) The problem for me is his assertion that Apple has decided to become a screen reader company etc .... What I read in that comment is a suggestion that Apple shouldn't have ventured in to providing screen support as there are specialists for it. That somehow the assistive technology specialist companies are doing a better job for promotion of braille than apple. So, here is my suggestion for humanware and freedom scientific who are likely to listen to Jonathan, whose work with those companies has been commendable; and these companies hardly face any resolution against them in the conventions of blindness organizations who represent the blind. Let Freedom Scientific and Humanware make the braille note takers at the same price as the price of their note takers without braille. Voice sense, voice note and Packmate without Braille display sell for around 3500. with braille option they sell close to 6500. Why that extra price for Braille? Is it acceptable at all to have these devices without braille as they are meant for the purpose of the blind and it has been established that blind are more successful if they learn braille? Even if they well their devices without Braille, is it acceptable that they charge so much extra for their Braille note takers? I would like some comments on that. Now, you may say that it's okay charge me extra but give me a better braille support but I am not sure if that will be acceptable to those who seem to speak for all of us with regard to braille. I am sorry I do not want to cause any debate about this issue on this list, but when someone linked with blindness "speciality" devices and software suggest that if apple has come in to screen reading support , it has to be perfect, I find myself very skeptical about the added justiification about survival of braille and literacy etc. True apple's braille support is not perfect, but it will be wrong to assume that a dedicated note taker is going to perform any better for you than an I device with a braille display. braille note takers are improving but they are not still the paragons of perfection. the makers of those devices claim that they are fully functional computers, those who have those note takers know that they are anything but. They are still slow, clunky and love to hang from time to time. I would suggest to schedule a meeting with an organization that sells these note takers, and work on them for an hour or so. make sure to try their web browser, and their capacity to play large books. and then decide about purchasing a dedicated note taker. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:29 PM, denise avant <denise.av...@gmail.com> wrote: Hello all, Sometimes I wonder if just because we ask Apple to provide better Braille display support, people think we are unnecessarily critical of Apple. I am forever grateful to Apple for building in accessibility to all of its products. What Apple has done over the last six years is positively wonderful. I never thought I’d be able to do so many things with a visual device, and pay the same price as everyone else. But that does not mean that blind people cannot and should not point out a flaw and demand better in a product. I listen to other podcasts having nothing to do with accessibility and Apple, and the sighted community is not hesitant to say when something needs to work better. If one of the screen reader companies fails to provide proper Braille display support in Windows, those of us, who use Windows are all over the company. Requesting good Braille input and output on an Apple device is not a ridiculous one. apple is the only one who can make the braille display support better. I don’t know if Apple cannot or will not make the Braille experience better. But voiceover belongs to apple, and I applaude those who are willing to stand up and ask for better. Jonathan talks about the children all of the time. But blind adults need to be literate as well. Perhaps people have their own reasons for wanting to simply rely on speech output. but I know there are times when people who cannot see well enough to read the screen need to use Braille. If someone has a hearing impairment in addition to blindness, then a Braille display with an Apple device may be essential to using the device. Also, there may be times when you need to read and write Braille without disturbing others or having the constant feedback of the speech. On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:35 PM, TaraPrakash <taraprak...@gmail.com> wrote: Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried about braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind children must have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's responsibility to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion. your 6,500 device is not fast or durable or efficient enough even for the blind as apple devices have become. those who work in the field of assistive devices have their vvested interest in bringing in the braille issue with some emotions about survival and identity. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall < <mailto:mehg...@icloud.com> mehg...@icloud.com> wrote: What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my observations, for what they're worth. I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more than makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, the efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud services can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker might be a few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time syncing up those notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can type notes on either device and have them appear instantly on the other, and with braille screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in braille. A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is cheaper, more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a dedicated notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more easily be used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's no perfect solution to the problem right now. On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe < <mailto:jsoro...@gmail.com> jsoro...@gmail.com> wrote: Jonathan, Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still limited. That means I could go for a compromise, purchasing one of the awkward hybrids like the Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as though I could fully harness the horse power of the iDevice if the interaction between display and iOS is efficient. Any further thoughts welcomed. My point here isn’t to stir up a debate of notetakers versus displays. I need to be productive on the move. A full notetaker can be cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the most efficient option. LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress. Joe -- Musings of a Work in Progress: <http://www.joeorozco.com/> www.JoeOrozco.com/ Twitter: @ScribblingJoe From: <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> viphone@googlegroups.com [ <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM To: <mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com> viphone@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille input Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about these things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the financial and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a mind to, but sadly it appears we are going to see another major release of iOS without appropriately robust Braille input being available. As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser standard than any other screen reader company. They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just the spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up and be counted. There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a better bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough in their Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's Braille input. What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when it comes to Braille input. I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some minor changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is. People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy. As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. Unemployment is high. Misconceptions abound regarding how capable we can be in the workplace, and in society as a whole. We need to be open to all solutions, and where possible, use the best mix of technology we can to be as productive, functional and self-reliant as we can. To be clear, I have enormous admiration for the way Apple has changed the game in assistive technology. When they released VoiceOver in 2009, I was concerned that Apple might do just enough to get people off its back regarding the inaccessibility of the iPhone. But that has not been the case. With every release, Apple has added tangible enhancements such as alternative forms of input, innovative ways for us to use the camera, and so much more. So Apple’s commitment to accessibility is real, its ongoing, and it has earned enormous praise and respect. Is there a “but” coming? Yes, there is, actually., because being grateful for a product doesn’t mean we don’t have rights as paying consumers to point out where a product falls short. But more than that, if Apple’s innovations risk killing off a category of product, and the literacy of our kids is threatened, we have a moral obligation to speak up constructively and ask Apple to engage with us as a community about fixing the issue. The Internet is buzzing with reports of bugs in iOS 7. I’m not unduly concerned about most of these, because I believe the majority of them will come out in the wash. iOS 7 was a massive refactoring of the OS. I hope that there’ll be fixes released steadily across the coming year. However, I am deeply troubled by Apple’s ongoing apparent failure to understand what constitutes Braille support of an appropriate quality. We’re not talking bugs in this case, we’re talking a fundamental user interface failure – a feature not fully fit for purpose. Since Braille was introduced in iOS, it has supported contracted Braille in English markets. This is a means by which space is saved, and speed increased, by using a series of symbols and abbreviations. When one reads contracted Braille in iOS, it works quite well. When one writes it, it is the worst implementation of contracted input I’ve ever used on any device. Since its inception, if you input a letter in contracted Braille which would be the abbreviation for a word if surrounded by spaces, iOS expands the word it represents if you pause for a short time before inputting the next character. For example, write “p” and it will quickly be expanded to the word “people”. If you are proofing a document you’ve brailled and wish to insert a letter in the middle of a word, you must preface the letter with a letter sign, dots 5-6, to prevent it from being expanded. This is not in accordance with the Braille code and is simply wrong. Apple must surely know about this poor implementation. It’s been talked about in many forums, including an excellent presentation by Judy Dixon at the CSUN Technology Conference on Persons with Disabilities. I, and I’m sure others, have also raised it. It’s also evident that Apple knows about the issues, because to its credit, it appears to at least have made an effort to try and fix the problem in iOS 7. It now offers an “Automatic Braille Translation” toggle. This feature is so below par compared with most of the design of all other VoiceOver features, that it must surely be the case that Apple is getting no advice, or poor advice, from anyone actually using Braille in their daily life. When you toggle “Automatic Braille Translation” off, you can take as long as you wish when inputting characters, and they’re not back-translated. Isn’t that what we want? Well yes, it would appear to be a step in the right direction. Except when you use it, you find that Braille is not readable on the display until you either press the space bar, or dots 4-5-cord. Why Apple believes this is acceptable, I have no idea. Can you imagine a sighted person finding it acceptable in any other scenario other than password entry, to not be able to look at what they’re entering until they press “Space”? But it’s worse than that. If you backspace over what you’ve typed, you run into back-translation issues similar to those experienced when automatic translation is set to on. Additionally, having to press dots 4-5-cord after inserting a letter in the middle of a word is counterintuitive, and again, an implementation far more primitive than anything else that offers contracted input. Apple seems to have implemented a pretty crude buffer, that is simply dumped when you type one of two commands to empty it. That is not a solution. The Braille implementation in iOS does not meet the “it’s intuitive and it just works” test that has been the hallmark of Apple products including VoiceOver. Now if it were just about us as Braille reading adults, I wouldn’t bother writing this post. It would get on my nerves, but I’d continue to work around it and just put it down to a bizarre, less than optimal implementation. I’m not writing this for me. I’m not asking blind people, and the world’s consumer organisations, to come together on this for me or people like me. I’m writing this for the kids. It’s the kids who matter. If you’re a Braille user, you’ll have seen the implementation of Nemeth in iOS 7. It’s there because Apple’s going after the education market, particularly in the US. Good for Apple. I can see enormous benefit in a kid being given an iPad and a Braille display for use at home and in school. Don’t underestimate how mainstream tech can be a great way to help blind kids blend in with sighted kids. Parents feel more empowered, because the iPad is technology they know and understand, so when the child gets in trouble at home, they can help out. Classroom teachers in mainstream schools know what an iPad is as well and feel similarly empowered. But all of these benefits have to be secondary considerations to the one that matters above all else, – equipping our kids with good Braille literacy skills. Braille is their ticket to higher education. Braille offers a greater chance of gainful employment. Braille is absolutely critical, and Braille is not to be trifled with. Half-baked Braille solutions are not appropriate for our kids when there’s a crisis in getting Braille instruction to them already. We should not expect our kids to have to learn to work-around Apple’s poor implementation, we should expect Apple to fix its Braille. For the last 20 years or so, blind kids have increasingly used proprietary notetaker technology. I’ve no problem whatsoever with technology moving on, and a category of product becoming obsolete. I love the idea of investing in a good Braille display that will last you for years, and upgrading the technology that drives the display on a more regular basis. But that technology has to do the Braille properly. There are cost savings to be made by cash-strapped agencies who purchase equipment for blind children, and that’s also why I’m writing this post. I can see bean-counters concluding that the combination of an iPad and a Braille display is a good solution for kids now. Many of these purchasers are not Braille users themselves, and I believe we have a duty of care to our kids to spread the word that Apple is not there yet. It is trying, and should be applauded for doing so, but still, it’s not there. You will remember the huge backlash caused by the initial release of Apple Maps in iOS 6. In terms of fitness for purpose, Apple Maps was far superior at release than Braille is now. The only difference is that Braille affects a tiny fraction of Apple’s user-base, not hundreds of millions of people. Lest anyone think I’m whining without a solution, I actually know a lot about this subject, having worked as a product manager with a range of products that use contracted Braille. I have a good feel for where Apple has got it wrong and what it might do to fix it, while not of course being familiar with the VoiceOver code. But I am absolutely confident that it’s fixable. Let’s not forget, Apple invented a way for blind people to make effective use of touch screens. Apple gave us unimagined access to taking photos. It is certainly not beyond Apple to look at best practice and figure this one out, because unlike some of the other things it’s done, the solutions already exist. If this poor-quality support had been offered to us by an assistive technology company, we’d have jumped all over it long before now. But given that Apple develops screen readers, that makes it both a mainstream technology company, and an assistive technology company. We should hold it to no less a standard. Having outlined the problem, here’s what I think needs to happen. Typically, I’d suggest that Apple needs to engage with the community with a view to fixing these issues for the sake of our kids, but that’s not really been its style. It is secretive by nature. In that case then, it needs to buy the expertise to make Braille truly viable in the education market. As Braille readers, we need to politely articulate the problems to Apple, and let Apple know we consider it important that they are fixed. Consumer organisations should do what they’ve done so many times before, and focus on their unity when it comes to Braille issues. A broad-coalition of consumers, educators and parents needs to ensure this issue is not allowed to drop. And finally, no one in charge of any purse strings should consider it an appropriate solution to give a kid an iPad in the classroom if they’re a Braille user. If purchasers want to move away from the blindness notetaker, and I get that, a laptop and Braille display is a far better solution in terms of Braille reliability and consistency. I’ll be the first to cheer loudly, and sing Apple’s praises, if it fixes its Braille. And I’ll continue to praise all it has done right, which I often do in media interviews and blindness tech forums. But please, for the sake of the kids, lets do what we need to do to advocate for good quality Braille on Apple devices. We have a duty to the next generation to do no less. I’ve done what I can as an individual to make Apple aware of these failings, but clearly, we need to do more to help it gain an appreciation of why this is so important. Jonathan Mosen Mosen Consulting Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training <http://mosen.org/> http://Mosen.org On 20/06/2015, at 9:24 am, Joe < <mailto:jsoro...@gmail.com> jsoro...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, I'm curious to hear from people who have replaced their Braille notetaker with an iDevice. I've been toying with the idea of investing in a U2 for reading books, taking notes and performing similar quick tasks. Questions: 1. I've heard there are displays that let you type text and then send to the iDevice in one burst. I don't understand the mechanics of this, but what are the displays you know that do this? 2. Is Braille input in iOS as dreadful as some people have made it out to be? I don't mind learning various keystrokes, but I do mind delays in transmition. 3. Is there a means to read BRF in iOS? 4. What 32-cell display would you personally recommend? Thanks guys for any help. 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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- The following information is important for all members of the viphone list. All new members to the this list are moderated by default. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. The archives for this list can be searched at http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- The following information is important for all members of the viphone list. 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