Good morning, Abd ur-Rahman
My apologies on the name spelling. I guess I was going on the literal spelling
rather than the common pronunciation ("al" vs. "AbdU") Of course, "ar-"
(rather than "al") is pronunciation also. And then we come to the (western)
hyphen and capitalization! I'll follow your practice <smile>. Some years ago
it was particularly important for the US government to list Arabic names
alphabetically. Chaos! To say nothing of the optional and periodic assumptions
of "ibn"s and "abu"s....or national origin tags.
Anyway, this is what I posted back on December 24, 2012 regarding Islam (and
contemporary Jewish, Christian and pantheistic) and pre- and post-Islamic
marriage practices and rules. Your corrections are welcome.
Allahu alim.
Greetings, everyone,
It would seem that Jojo is finding comfort in repeating assertions on the
historical marital mores of the Arabian peninsula that are flat-out incorrect.
I am worried that other readers on this list may take repetition for reality,
and so will summarize things here.
There are several themes to be comprehended:
1. Marital patterns of contemporary Arabia
2. The difference between betrothal, marriage, and consummation
3. The several differing roles of marriage in tribal and other society
4. Muhammad and A'isha.
I'll take these one by one.
1) The man who eventually came to be recognized as a prophet and the
institutional founder of Islam, Muhammad, lived in the late sixth and early
seventh centuries, C.E. Like everyone else, he and his family abided by the
marital customs of the time and place. These identical customs were practiced
by the Jewish, Christian, and pantheistic communities that inhabited the
peninsula at that time. Islam had yet to emerge.
At that time, there were no limits to the number of wives a husband could take,
other than his ability to provide for each of them and to protect them.
(Solomon is reputed to have had 99 wives.) Again, this was true for all
Christians, Jews and pantheists. And there were no limits to the age at which a
girl could become betrothed, that is, entered by her family into an agreement
for eventual marriage.
2) This brings us to the second theme -- betrothal, marriage and consummation.
The way marriages took place was first with a betrothal -- an agreement for
eventual marriage when and only when the girl became a woman, that is, had her
first period -- and then with the marriage itself. This consisted of a formal
contract providing, typically for a dowery payment to the bride and other
conditions as were desired, the explicit consent of both the bride and the
husband-to-be, and typically the bride's move along with her possessions (which
remained her property) into the husband's household. Typically, the marriage
was then consummated. Besides the evident pleasures of the moment, this was
also important in demonstrating the virginity of the bride. A long amount of
time might elapse between the betrothal and the marriage. Pre-pubsecent
betrothal was not uncommon, but marriage itself and consummation could only
occur after the bride had her first period.
If a girl was betrothed by her family she retained the right to eventually
reject the pending marriage. In other words, regardless of the betrothal the
woman retained the right of consent or refusal.
To reiterate, these practices were common to all the communities of the Arabian
peninsula-- whether Jewish, Christian, pantheistic, or, with the emergence of
Islam, Muslim. "Child molestation" did not enter into these practices of any
of these communities.
For purposes of comparison, please note that in New Hampshire in the USA, girls
can with parental consent be married as young as thirteen years old. Until
recently repealed by statute, girls in Colorado could by common law be married
as young as 12 years old.
3) In the West, today, the common motive for marriage is love. But this is
atypical of the human experience. Marriages are routinely also made for reasons
including:
a) extending protection to widows and orphans
b) cementing commercial alliances
c) consolidating land holdings
d) creating political alliances
4) A'isha and Muhammad were betrothed when she was young and pre-pubescent. It
is not clear when their marriage and consummation became official, but all
accounts, including hers, specify that she was eligible for marriage, that is,
that she had 'become a woman' with her first period.
A'isha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, one of Muhammad's companions. A'isha was
nineteen when Muhammad died, and lived to the age of sixty-three. She was
highly respected among the emerging Muslim community, becoming both a Muslim
scholar and a rich source of information about Muhammad and his household.
Before he died, Muhammad instructed his followers to "Take your religion for
A'isha."
When Muhammad asked Abu Bakr for his daughter in marriage, she was already
betrothed to another man. Her father sought and received the man's agreement to
end their betrothal, as his interest had moved elsewhere.
Muhammad had a total of twelve wives during his life-time (not the "dozens"
that some mistakenly allege), and at one point in time had nine at the same
time, prior to the revelation that a Muslim could have no more than four.
Muhammad was not required to divorce five of them. This is the source of some
understandable confusion as to whether Muhammad himself abided by the (new)
limit of four among Muslims. Those Christian, Jewish and pantheistic
communities that chose not to convert to Islam of course could stay with the
practice of unlimited wives.
Muhammad's marriages were motivated often by the need to extend protection and
sustenance to widows and orphans, as well cement relations with other families.
However, it seems that with many of them and with A'isha a genuine love and
deep respect united them. For example, Muhammad first married Khadija, who was
about twice his age. He took no other wives until after her death.
I hope these notes are of help in resolving the confusion caused by the
persistent reiteration of disinformation on this topic.
Cheers,
Lawrence
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Nothing new below.
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On Jan 2, 2013, at 11:01 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
> At 07:29 PM 1/2/2013, de Bivort Lawrence wrote:
>> Thanks, Abd ar-Rahman.
>>
>> Some time ago I wrote a long post on Muslims, marriage, and pre-and post
>> Quranic practices. Jojo said he would respond later, but never did. FYI, I
>> subsequently read that post to a well-regarded Muslim scholar and he
>> confirmed the accuracy of the post, so I'll let my post stand.
>
> Do you have a link to it? Or the date and time?
> I do notice that you "mispell" my name correctly as a common variation.
>
>> I think memetics is the way to understand the
>> birther/Muhammed/aliens/illuminati alternative "reality". For reasons I
>> think you and others here will appreciate, I'd prefer not to discuss this
>> field further, here or in any other public venue.
>
> You can write me privately. Anyone who subscribes to this list can, if you
> read the list as a subscriber.
>
>> I admire your patience, and wish I had as much of it!
>
> Patience or foolishness, I can't tell. Thanks.
>
>> On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg75072.html
>
> On the subject of Ayesha's age at "marriage" i.e. when she began to live with
> the Prophet, I found some sources I'll share. I am *not* claiming to know the
> age of Ayesha, and my own opinion is that it's impossible to know for sure.
> But I'd still pay attention to authoritative analysis. Too much of what I've
> seen may have been contaminated by bias.
>
> http://dawn.com/2012/02/17/of-aishas-age-at-marriage/
> This is a newspaper source and might be a cut above the average. The author
> is called "a scholar of the Qur'an," which could make him outside his
> expertise. Some of the arguments I've seen elsewhere. The argument about the
> kunnat, the name Ayesha adopted, "Umm Abdullah," is interesting. He concludes
> that she was 21 when she moved into the Prophet's House (I'll call that
> "marriage"). And God knows best.
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/islamic-pedophelia_b_814332.html
> This is a reputable media site. The author has clearly done a lot of
> research. He's also not necessarily a "muslim scholar," but has probaby
> collected materials and analysis from some. The above site and this one, I
> just found today, and I find, here, many of the facts and arguments I came up
> with myself. He comes up with a possible age of 20 at marriage.
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth
> Article in the Guardian by a Muslim woman, "studying for a DPhil at Oxford
> University, focusing on Islamic movements in Morocco." She comes up with my
> opinion, roughly, saying "it is impossible to know with any certainty how old
> Aisha was," but estimates of her age range from nine to 19.
>
> http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4604&CATE=1
> This is a reputable web site apparently affiliated with Nuh Keller, whom I
> know. The page is written by G.F. Haddad, whom I also know. Keller is
> definitely a Muslim scholar, and recognized as such. Haddad, as I recall, was
> studying, and that was more than ten years ago. The page is poorly formatted
> and the questions that he is answering are not set off from his answers, but
> he concludes that Ayesha "could not have been less than 14."
>
> I looked for some time for some page that appeared to me to be authoritative.
> I did not select pages for skepticism on the age. But I didn't find one that
> actually argued for nine years old.
>
> Trying to find some other opinion, I cast a bit wider net. I found a page
> titled "Authentic Tauheed," and mentioning the "Salaff" The could be a highly
> conservative site, but I didn't read widely enough to be sure.
> http://authentictauheed.blogspot.com/2011/07/age-of-hazrat-aisha-ra-when-she-married.html
> He comes up with age 9-18, and says that regardless, she had reached puberty
> and was very happy.
> (The site seems amateurish in ways, so I'm not confident in the authority of
> this site as to scholarship.)
>
> Okay, I found something.
> http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=3&id=879
> has a PDF download, of a paper prepared that argues for an age of 9. The
> controversy is portrayed as between "history" and "hadith." Basically, a
> fundamentalist position is being taken. The hadith are correct, and history
> is false, and that actually seems to be the major point. If you want to know
> how a fundamentalist Muslim thinks, the paper is detailed. The paper has the
> Abu Dawud hadith, previously mentioned, in Arabic, should I be crazy enough
> to pursue this further.
>
> My own stand is that we cannot know the age with certainty, and that the age
> is actually irrelevant.
>
> Legally, the conditions of marriage and consent are crucial, and age is only
> a proxy for those conditions. A community may use such a proxy to protect
> children, and I commend the practice of requiring judicial consent for a
> marriage under some specified age. That process could review testimony, etc.
> From a religious perspective, if a woman is actually ready for marriage,
> delaying it can be harmful, so, ultimately, the welfare of the child must be
> paramount. That determination may also vary with the social conditions
> present. And God knows best.
>
