Jojo again is entirely incorrect in these assertions.
On Jan 3, 2013, at 1:12 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > Lomax and Bivort, why is it that you consider the work of scholars who lived > 1600 years later better than the testimony of the person herself as recorded > by your own muslim scholars. I find this attempt at deception instructive > but puzzling. > > A'isha herself said, in 2 respected hadiths, that she was 9 years old when > muhammed had his first intercourse with her. Now, here comes all these > westernized scholars and "experts", that claim otherwise and you take their > work as more authoritative than Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari. I really > don't understand this. Islam is indeed a malady. > > > > Jojo > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" > <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT:JoJo's "Truth" about islam and little girls. > > >> At 07:29 PM 1/2/2013, de Bivort Lawrence wrote: >>> Thanks, Abd ar-Rahman. >>> >>> Some time ago I wrote a long post on Muslims, marriage, and pre-and post >>> Quranic practices. Jojo said he would respond later, but never did. FYI, I >>> subsequently read that post to a well-regarded Muslim scholar and he >>> confirmed the accuracy of the post, so I'll let my post stand. >> >> Do you have a link to it? Or the date and time? >> I do notice that you "mispell" my name correctly as a common variation. >> >>> I think memetics is the way to understand the >>> birther/Muhammed/aliens/illuminati alternative "reality". For reasons I >>> think you and others here will appreciate, I'd prefer not to discuss this >>> field further, here or in any other public venue. >> >> You can write me privately. Anyone who subscribes to this list can, if you >> read the list as a subscriber. >> >>> I admire your patience, and wish I had as much of it! >> >> Patience or foolishness, I can't tell. Thanks. >> >>> On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg75072.html >> >> On the subject of Ayesha's age at "marriage" i.e. when she began to live >> with the Prophet, I found some sources I'll share. I am *not* claiming to >> know the age of Ayesha, and my own opinion is that it's impossible to know >> for sure. But I'd still pay attention to authoritative analysis. Too much of >> what I've seen may have been contaminated by bias. >> >> http://dawn.com/2012/02/17/of-aishas-age-at-marriage/ >> This is a newspaper source and might be a cut above the average. The author >> is called "a scholar of the Qur'an," which could make him outside his >> expertise. Some of the arguments I've seen elsewhere. The argument about the >> kunnat, the name Ayesha adopted, "Umm Abdullah," is interesting. He >> concludes that she was 21 when she moved into the Prophet's House (I'll call >> that "marriage"). And God knows best. >> >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/islamic-pedophelia_b_814332.html >> This is a reputable media site. The author has clearly done a lot of >> research. He's also not necessarily a "muslim scholar," but has probaby >> collected materials and analysis from some. The above site and this one, I >> just found today, and I find, here, many of the facts and arguments I came >> up with myself. He comes up with a possible age of 20 at marriage. >> >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth >> Article in the Guardian by a Muslim woman, "studying for a DPhil at Oxford >> University, focusing on Islamic movements in Morocco." She comes up with my >> opinion, roughly, saying "it is impossible to know with any certainty how >> old Aisha was," but estimates of her age range from nine to 19. >> >> http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4604&CATE=1 >> This is a reputable web site apparently affiliated with Nuh Keller, whom I >> know. The page is written by G.F. Haddad, whom I also know. Keller is >> definitely a Muslim scholar, and recognized as such. Haddad, as I recall, >> was studying, and that was more than ten years ago. The page is poorly >> formatted and the questions that he is answering are not set off from his >> answers, but he concludes that Ayesha "could not have been less than 14." >> >> I looked for some time for some page that appeared to me to be >> authoritative. I did not select pages for skepticism on the age. But I >> didn't find one that actually argued for nine years old. >> >> Trying to find some other opinion, I cast a bit wider net. I found a page >> titled "Authentic Tauheed," and mentioning the "Salaff" The could be a >> highly conservative site, but I didn't read widely enough to be sure. >> http://authentictauheed.blogspot.com/2011/07/age-of-hazrat-aisha-ra-when-she-married.html >> He comes up with age 9-18, and says that regardless, she had reached puberty >> and was very happy. >> (The site seems amateurish in ways, so I'm not confident in the authority of >> this site as to scholarship.) >> >> Okay, I found something. >> http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=3&id=879 >> has a PDF download, of a paper prepared that argues for an age of 9. The >> controversy is portrayed as between "history" and "hadith." Basically, a >> fundamentalist position is being taken. The hadith are correct, and history >> is false, and that actually seems to be the major point. If you want to know >> how a fundamentalist Muslim thinks, the paper is detailed. The paper has the >> Abu Dawud hadith, previously mentioned, in Arabic, should I be crazy enough >> to pursue this further. >> >> My own stand is that we cannot know the age with certainty, and that the age >> is actually irrelevant. >> >> Legally, the conditions of marriage and consent are crucial, and age is only >> a proxy for those conditions. A community may use such a proxy to protect >> children, and I commend the practice of requiring judicial consent for a >> marriage under some specified age. That process could review testimony, etc. >> From a religious perspective, if a woman is actually ready for marriage, >> delaying it can be harmful, so, ultimately, the welfare of the child must be >> paramount. That determination may also vary with the social conditions >> present. And God knows best. >> >
