On Aug 13, 2007, at 7:30 AM, Michel Jullian wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Horace Heffner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Only potential differences matter
On Aug 13, 2007, at 2:59 AM, Michel Jullian wrote:
Measuring relative surface potentials between two
electrodes simply doesn't tell you if there are excess surface
electrons on one or both or neither. It still seems pretty obvious
to me.
You can say that three times it won't make it true, whatever Lewis
Carroll says ;-)
Come on, what you describe is a capacitor, there are excess
electrons on the surface of the most negative electrode facing the
most positive one, of a very predictable total charge given by:
C*Delta_V = C*(potential of most positive electrode - potential of
most negative electrode)
Elementary EE stuff. Only potential differences matter I tell you!
Suppose a 1 m radius metal sphere, sphere A, has 1 coul more negative
charges than positive. Suppose a 1 m radius metal sphere, sphere B,
has 2 coul more negative charges than positive. They have a finite
potential difference V at some separation D. The same is true for
two spheres X and Y where X has 2 coul less negative charges than
positive, and Y has 1 coul less negative charges than positive.
Sphere, charge in coul:
A -1
B -2
X +2
Y +1
There is no difference in relative potentials,
How do you know?
Because the excess charge count is a *given*. It is a postulate.
The pairs of spheres each have a finite potential difference V at
some separation D. D is a *given* from which a V results. Coulomb's
law is a *given*. I can apply logic to the givens and reach a
conclusion.
All you can tell is that there is no difference in relative charges!
Charge is absolute. It is *my* contention that it is possible to
establish a neutral condition, and thus a neutral potential, a gauge,
from which fugacity can be determined by measuring potential
differences. This then is in fact telling the difference in absolute
charges, not relative charges. Electron fugacity can thus be
determined, via an absolute potential, and in fact differing electron
fugacities may produce differing results with respect to cold fusion
vs mere relative potential differences which tell you nothing. It is
your contention that only potential differences matter, not mine.
Also note that in practice, the spheres would start as neutral
(zero net charge),
You can't say that the spheres start as neutral by your own
reasoning. You are unable to define or determine neutral by your
reasoning. You are applying circular logic. It also appears you are
refusing to accept any set of premises from which logic can be
applied to reach a conclusion with which you disagree. These are both
common logical fallacies.
and the power supply would transfer electrons from one to the other
so that your two spheres would have equal and opposite net charges
at all times.
Michel
but the two differ
significantly in electron fugacity, the significant variable.
I still would like to know:
1. Is it possible to establish a condition where it is certain there
are more negative charges than positive at some point P on a given
plate surface?
2. Is it possible to establish a condition where it is certain there
are more positive charges than negative at some point P on a given
plate surface?
By "point P" I really mean some small volume (dx)^3 bordering the
surface.
These are not meant to be academic questions as much as practical ones.
Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
