----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 5:04 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Surface Electron Layer Catalyzed Fusion hypothesis (was Re: Mystery pictures)
> I'm just going to say what I think is right without references, > because citing references for this would take me days of effort. > > On Aug 28, 2007, at 3:50 PM, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Good guess Jones, the haloes are indeed the excess electrons. > > Excess electrons don't hang around on the surface like that. They > are in conduction bands. Their waveforms are distributed throughout > conduction bands, not localized in blobs. I never said they were hanging around, on the contrary I expect them to move very fast on very deformed Pd orbitals, jumping easily from one metal atom to the next. BTW I know electrons are not really little yellow blobs, it's just that there are limits to what Jmol can draw, spheres basically :-) It was also a convenient way to show approximately the number of excess electrons I expect to exist simultaneously at any given time on a PdD lattice cube face's surface: a few tens (as many as solvated deuterons facing that surface, i.e. 4 times the number of layers of solvated deuterons constituting the double layer's positive plate, i.e. 4 times several = a few tens ;-). I agree it would be much better to show their wavefunctions but I am not at the quantum modelling phase yet, I will have to learn how to do that first. Have you practiced that yourself? > It takes energy for them > to leave that state - so there is an energy barrier they tunnel > through to get to an ion in solution. Cathode electrons tend to > tunnel to H3O+ hydronium ions and thereby neutralize a hydrogen, i.e: > > e- + H3O+ --> H2O + H > > and they are never "free" during this process because they tunnel > through a barrier to their final state. This process/reaction is > called "electronation". Due to particle mass being in the exponent > of the number e in the tunneling probability, electronation is far > more likely than adsorbtion, which takes time for H3O+ rotations, > during which electronation can occur and thus form neutral H gas away > from the metal where it is not adsorbed. This may be true, but a significant number of electrolyte deuterons do make the jump, otherwise there would be no loading would there? > Electrons can easily > tunnel across several H2O molecules. Protons take a while to tunnel > from an H3O+ to an immediately adjacent H2O molecule because only a > small amplitude exists away from the H3O+ electron orbitals. > > Protons do not tend to exist in a free state in solution. That's why I have shown them in a solvated state. > They are > bound to the H3O+ ion by shared electrons, and the H3O+ ions are > surrounded by polarized H2O molecules. If this can be distinguished visually (in a 3D molecular view) from a multi-hydrated H+ (H+ surrounded by polarized H2O molecules), a pointer to a picture or better a 3D rotatable structure will be welcome. In any case I expect the idealized spherical cushion of solvent molecules to be highly deformed in the tremendous electric field of the double layer capacitor, surely there must have been some work on this. >> The pictures show my (open to improvement) model for the PdD/ >> electrolyte interface at the atomic scale. Tools used: Excel and >> Jmol. Atoms drawn at ~25% of their vanDerWaals radii on left view >> for clarity. >> >> <028901c7e9ce$2ec13fe0$3800a8c0> >> >> <028a01c7e9ce$2ec13fe0$3800a8c0> >> >> Grey-blue: unit cell of 0.41nm side Face Centered Cubic Pd lattice >> in PdD1.0. The loaded deuterons (white) fill all its octahedral >> sites, forming an identical FCC lattice shifted inwards by 0.205 nm >> (half the cube side). One of them, colored light yellow, is about >> to deload via a pyramidal surface site through the excess electron >> layer in order to ultimately bubble up. > > I think in FCC lattices D tends to tunnel through the square face > holes, but I'll need to find a ref. on that to be sure. Yes that's what I meant. Those holes have a pyramidal shape (half an octahedron) haven't they? >> Red and white D2O molecules, being polar, solvate positive >> electrolyte deuterons on their O side and negative surface Pd ions >> on their D side. > > This is not right. The positive deuterons end up as H3O+ ions. The > spare deuteron moves through the solution in an E field by tunneling > to an adjacent H2O atom which then must rotate 180 degrees before the > next tunneling event. The H3O+ ions are surrounded by a polarized > blanket of H2O. As I said I would expect this spherical geometry not to be maintained near the cathode, where there is "real" charge around, not just the slight charge assymmetry of neutral water molecules. What we really need is a molecular view of the first hydrated ionic layer of the double layer based on quantum modelling not on imagined things. Anyone seen such a model? >> The bulk size of D2O (occupies on average a cube of side 0.31 nm, >> cubic root of molecular mass 20E-3Kg/6E23 over density 1106Kg/m3 >> when unstressed) should allow it to be shoehorned by the field into >> the 0.29 nm pitch of the surface Pd atoms, i.e. the structures and >> thus the ion channels on both sides of the excess electron layer >> should be aligned. > > The excess electrons are waveforms in the metal, not little blobs on > the surface. Oh, and they are not yellow?? ;-) I expect the orbitals to bulge out of the metal (beyond the vDW radius) under the pull of the high field, don't you? >> D2O acts as the dielectric of the double layer capacitor > > > This double layer of atoms at the cathode surface is commonly called > the "interface". I did mean the double layer capacitor: the cathode surface on the negative side, _several_ layers of hydrated cations on the positive side. The same capacitor you have drawn in your equivalent circuit for Ron's 3-electrode cell. > The first few layers of metal+adsorbents is called > the interphase. > >> by separating its negative plate (cathode surface with its excess >> electrons) from the multilayer positive "plate" formed by the >> electrolyte deuterons > > Deuterons in the interface when the cathode becomes a cathode Uh? > are > immediately either electronated or adsorbed. Those are the ones we are concerned with for putative fusion events, aren't they? > For this reason, the > interface is generally not shown containing H3O+ ions because it > consists almost entirely of the two molecule thick water interface. Why two water molecule thick and not just one water molecule thick as I have shown it? Or maybe you mean the next water layer, beyond the one I have drawn, which indeed I expect to be two molecule thick (first D2O layer has its Ds away from the surface, next has its Ds towards the surface, no deuteron can be hydrated in between). Anyway, a picture will be welcome. > Ions other than hydrogen are kept even further away by their own > polarized blankets of water molecules. That's fine, we don't want them to muddy the waters (literally) >> on the right (only the first of many one D2O molecule thick layers >> is shown). One of those d's, colored light yellow, is about to jump >> from the positive "plate" to the negative one, going for one of the >> cathode's excess electrons in order to discharge and ultimately >> bubble up. > > > This doesn't happen. If the D+ makes it to the plate it is adsorbed, > not evolved as gas. The D that ends up as gas is electronated by > tunneling electrons. Possibly. An incoming d anyway, if it fuses it doesn't matter much what it was supposed to do instead. >> My (not yet debunked on CMNS) theory for CF is that a significant >> number of such outgoing+incoming deuteron pairs reach the electron >> layer at the same time and fuse instead of their usual bubbling up, > > One problem with this theory is the old "where is the electron" > problem. When a deuteron enters a the first plane lattice site, > which is by tunneling because a D atom doesn't fit through the holes, Agreed > it is joined by an electron which doesn't quite fit. If (and when - > that lattice vibrates) the orbital does not fit, the orbital becomes > a dual state thing, having an orbital amplitude, and a conduction > band conduction band amplitude. I personally think it also has a > deflated state amplitude with the adsorbed hydrogen. This means any > D that can potentially tunnel to this lattice site has some > probability of tunneling into a fused state. That is deflation fusion. So you think any fusion occurs in those octahedral sites, whereas I suspect it occurs at the excess electron layer. >> with the help of excess electron screening and channel alignment. >> An experiment where the probability of such encounters would be >> increased, e.g. by back-loading the cathode to maintain a steady >> front deloading flux of deuterons while electrolyzing, > > This is just the back side cell concept with the terms "front" and > "back" reversed. Possibly, ref please. >> would support the hypothesis if it yielded enhanced heat or >> reaction products wrt previous P&F experiments (where simultaneous >> deloading and electrolysis hasn't been particularly sought). > > One problem with this is the helium ends up in the Pd, just below the > surface No, as I said I expect the fusion to occur just above the surface. > - typically in little crystalline domains - possibly due to > their ability to handle the hydrogen fugacity without cracking. > Another is that lots of experiments have been done using DC combined > with AC or pulsed waveforms having a wide variety - all without > special or repeatable results. Ah, but has it been tried to deload _continuously_ (using back loading) while DC-electrolyzing on the same surface that is deloading (two reasons to bubble)? I expect this to be better than any DC+AC scheme. > Further, this has been done using a > huge range of voltages. In fact I referred you to some HV > experiments documented on my web page. I didn't use D2O for those, > but others have. What kind of HV, do you mean hundreds of V i.e. Mizuno type experiments? I have taken part in one of those, but it was DC, or rather as much DC as it can be when you make sparks in water! Also it was tungsten in my case, can palladium stand the temperature without melting immediately??? >> Your opinions welcome. > > On this list you probably get opinions welcome or not. 8^) That's why we love this place :-) Michel
