Ed - My information that the computer models can't accurately track reality? Chaos theory, mostly, and practical experience and observation too, validated by numerous people who know and use these systems and are honest about how they work. You can't expect a recursive computer model to accurately predict for you the outcomes of a planetary weather/ocean system. Even if you had precise data on every cubic centimeter of sky, ocean, and land surface, and the data weren't linked to geological, cosmic, and other influences from outside your system (they are of course), you still wouldn't get much more model accuracy than the wild guesses and massaged outcomes you have now. That's one. Another is bad data collection and analysis, documented extensively. That's two, but it's really moot because of one. Three: a false problem is being substituted for real ones, used as cover to impose socialist-style government control on a population that otherwise repeatedly rejects such attempts when allowed to express their choice at the ballot box. Liberals and socialists are inherently totalitarian and have a hard time with that darn voting thing, much preferring to rule the masses by direct edict. So they use false issues and the courts, if not force, to get what can't be obtained democratically. It's #3 that does make me a bit angry. To answer your question, the advantage of being angry about someone trying to steal your liberty on false pretense (or otherwise)is that you are inspired to act to stop it. One small example of such loss is the compact fluorescent bulb. Mercury leaching out of landfills into the groundwater is a Bad Thing. It is a fact. Yet their use is being *legislated* (incandescents banned - loss of liberty to choose) because they may reduce the emission of a harmless gas! The only real advantage is saving a small amount of oil, but the cost is real pollution vs. imaginary AGW. That is wrong. Food as energy (ethanol) is wrong. Failure to properly and safely exploit our own existing energy resources for those same false reasons is wrong.
Yes we need to get off foreign oil in the very short term and eventually all oil as a fuel source. I'm in the tank for that. But we cannot afford to waste any more precious time and resources acting on the basis that AGW exists, much less do we have any predictive ability or practical capacity to mitigate such changes in any way. Notice where the posts trailed off about slowing a harmful cooling cycle? Good at a bad time, or maybe bad at good, but ... ppppft. The point is even if we were granted the power to begin directly manipulating the weather, we have no clue as to how to wield that power to obtain the desired result. >> So, what is the point of fighting this process? In addition to the practical matters above, our integrity and more. It's wrong to direct public policy based on a lie. For instance, I think most people here, including perhaps yourself Ed, feel that certain policies arising from the war on terror or at least the Iraq invasion are based on a lie. How does that make you feel? Sad? Angry? There you go. Let's use truth and good science this time. - Rick -----Original Message----- From: Edmund Storms [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 2:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Edmund Storms Subject: Re: [Vo]:Sunspotless Rick, I ask you where you get your information and why does the claim for global warming causes such an emotional reaction? The world is clearly warming. The only issue is how much of this warming is caused by burning fossil fuels. Regardless of the answer to this question, what is the advantage of being so angry about the debate? Reducing the use of fossil fuel has great advantage regardless of its contribution to CO2. So, what is the point of fighting this process? Ed On Sep 2, 2008, at 5:01 PM, Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Sounds scary. But why are sea ice levels still reported to be so low > in the arctic if it's getting colder? Why is NOAA saying this July was > the 9th warmest globally on record? > http://www.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080815_ncdc.html What do sunspots > have to do with global climate? Noctilucent clouds not forming? Do > they matter? I know there's some coincidence between low sunspot > cycles and colder climate, but how good is that circumstantial data? > Better than the data associating warming with human greenhouse gas > output? > > One thing is very certain: we do not have any possibility of > predicting a global 'trend' either way in the absence of any real > handle on the actual causes of such trends. That otherwise rational > people have concluded that human activity is a significant climate > change driver based on untenable models and theories is very sad, > especially when false 'solutions' are proposed, even demanded and > *legislated*, right at the time when real solutions such as you > mention below are actually called for. I wouldn't want to repeat that > mistake with sunspots or anything else until we really know what we're > talking about. What might look like blood in the water could really > just be an algae bloom due to global warming.<g> But you're right when > you imply that dealing with climate change means preparing for it, not > making foolish attempts to mitigate it. I posted here before why it's > absolutely certain that the models and notions about anthropogenic > global warming are totally nonsense (not false per se, simply nonsense > as in completely detached from reality). At the same time everyone can > see that the climate is always changing. You either have the courage > to accept science despite social and political pressures, or flee to > your comforting illusions and stick your head right up where NOAA must > be putting their thermometers. > > Since the faith based AGW movement has apparently become a government > favored and sanctioned religion in violation of our Constitution, I'm > inclined to engage in civil disobedience with regard to any laws or > regulations based on that religion, and to oppose the activities of > its zealots with appropriate actions of my own. C'mon you alternative > thinkers here, join the revolution. Cells of resistance are popping up > all over. Free beer while it lasts. > > - Comrade Rick-0 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Foster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 6:52 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]:Sunspotless > > Could a significant global cooling effect be taking place.? I notice > there is a deafening silence from Pope Algore and his Church of Global > Warming on > this subject. It would be very inconvenient for the selling of > carbon > indulgences, oops... that's offsets. Nothing is made of the fact that > 2007 saw the largest one year drop in average global temperature in > recorded history. Didn't hear about that did you? Almost everyone who > lives on the real earth, rather that the computer climate model earth, > has noticed that it's been a lot cooler lately. Where I live in > southern California, winter before last winter was the coldest since > 1948, but of course nothing was made of that in the news. I lost 500 > feet of ficus hedge because it froze to death. There was a massive > die-out of native plant species in the canyons near my home as well, > all frozen. > > The fast dancing and circumlocutory nonsense spewing forth from the > Global Warming Priesthood grasping for some explanation are becoming > both shrill and comical. The real reason for climate changes, solar > activity, is showing us something quite the opposite of Algore's > dreamworld. You know, that's the one where all of us ride bicycles and > starve to death, while Algore flies about in his Gulfstream and has a > special lane on the road for his fleet of SUVs while he grows ever > fatter. Anyone else notice he's begun to resemble a fat Bela Lugosi? > > There has been a total lack of sunspots for a month. This is not good > news, either for real people or Algore. This normally indicates a > significant colder period on the earth, or even an ice age. We need > to get really serious about energy supplies, both conventional and > new, especially the new ones. We also need to quit whining about > genetically modified crops. If there is a long term colder climate, > agricultural output will plummet. More energy and higher crop yields > in a shorter growing season will be essential to prevent the > starvation of millions or even billions. > > Here is a link to the observations about the lack of sunspots: > > http://www.dailytech.com/Sun+Makes+History+First+Spotless+Month+in+a+C > entury > /article12823.htm > > http://tinyurl.com/562srq > > M. > > > > > >
